Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 17:40:57 02/01/01
Go up one level in this thread
On February 01, 2001 at 06:23:02, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >On January 31, 2001 at 22:15:26, Chuck wrote: > >>On January 31, 2001 at 14:03:09, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >> >>>On January 31, 2001 at 13:47:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On January 31, 2001 at 11:04:05, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 09:29:49, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 08:35:34, Sandro Necchi wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 01:00:18, Jouni Uski wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>http://www.computerschach.de/tourn/cad2001/cad2001.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In Gadeques tournament Deep Fritz - Shredder 5 ended 10-10. But 14 games were >>>>>>>>won by white! And I thought, that whites advantage is minimal in computer chess. >>>>>>>>Have programs killer books or what? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>As far as Shredder 5.0 is concerned there are no killer variations. The book is >>>>>>>made mainly for the human players and with a lot of alternatives to make it play >>>>>>>different lines. There are very few very long variations. Of course there are >>>>>>>good move against weak ones, but not deep variations. >>>>>>>So, it is a sort of compromise to make the program fun to play with. >>>>>>>Since we drew 6 games and lost 7, there is still a a lot of room for >>>>>>>improvements... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sandro Necchi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Jouni >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm saving this message to quote later in my life. >>>>> >>>>>You can dump it. In my games, Shredder 5 didn't play one single killer line. >>>>> >>>>>Enrique >>>> >>>> >>>>What is your definition of a killer line? >>> >>>A line that doesn't exist in opening theory and gives decisive advantage to the >>>program that plays it. >>> >>>>A definition of mine could be: "knowing in advance that you make a full >>>>point with it against a certain program X1 which is having book X2". >>>> >>>>I remember 60 moves killer lines in mchess >>> >>>I don't know how many, but Mchess was full of them. Evals of +2 or more >>>immediately after book were not so rare. Sometimes Mchess left book with a mate >>>evaluation. :) >> >>I don't particularly see anything wrong with "booking" against certain >>opponents, we do it in human games, too. But didn't Sandro Necchi also do some >>of the books for MChess? I find that an odd coincedence worth noting, and a >>little humorous, too. Still, I feel only the losing program is to blame - with a >>wide book and some learning to adjust it, this shouldn't be a serious problem. > >Yes, I agree. This thing about killer lines became anecdotic. Wide books and >learners take such good care of them that I guess the effort of finding cooks is >not worth it anymore. > >Enrique I'm very sure that the winner of the ICCA 2001 championship will not play with a very wide book. There are 2 big problems with real wide books a) how ever in the world do you test all lines in your book? b) many lines are going to be bad if the book is real wide A tournament book of say 3000 different possible lines i don't call wide as you can easily play 3000 games 40 in 2. I think most companies own a bit more as me (i own a single dual PIII800 and a pentiumpro-internet computer). Most have up to 10 autoplayers playing. You can do easily 3000 games after a while then to test every line and by keeping on producing games you can create a book of that size easily then. More games mean a bit more lines but not that your book is wide or something. A program playing a line which is simply not checked by games is running a big risk. winner of a big tournament needs a real high %. If you already have a 50% chance that line you play is not checked, then you lose chanceless a few games, meaning you're chanceless for a high ranking! Simple math. Most GMs know up to 2 different openings at most. Only against computers they play real weird systems or openings they never have played before in their life as professional, they lose those games usual... >>How many killer lines can you cook against one program anyway? I have noticed >>that Tiger, who is reportedly suffering from this on ICC, seems to often be in >>book several moves after comp opponents, too. >> >>> >>>In my games, the new books of Deep Fritz, Nimzo 8 and Gandalf are too recent to >>>be cooked, but the books of Junior 6 and Gambit are old enough, and still I >>>didn't see any killer lines played by Shredder 5. As far as I can tell, we are >>>not facing a new "Mchess case". You can download the games and take a look at >>>the lines. >>> >>>Enrique
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