Author: Uri Blass
Date: 07:54:13 02/28/01
Go up one level in this thread
On February 28, 2001 at 09:57:06, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >On February 28, 2001 at 07:21:44, Jeremiah Penery wrote: > >>On February 27, 2001 at 13:35:33, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >> >>>On February 27, 2001 at 10:49:29, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On February 27, 2001 at 10:07:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 27, 2001 at 08:24:14, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>I believe that the drawish move was Qe3! instead of the Qxc6? Can somebody >>>>>>post the FEN string that produce the graphical position for me. Plus I wonder >>>>>>what program save the draw in the shortest time possible? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>None can see this. It is a 60+ ply repetition. Way beyond anything we can >>>>>see today. >>>> >>>>We need to test all the programs in order to say that none can see it. >>>> >>>>Some programs like dark thought are not available so we cannot know that none >>>>can see it. >>>> >>>>The fact that it is 60 ply repetition is not a proof that none can see it >>>>because programs only to need the right extensions to see the relevant 60 plies >>>>forward. >>>> >>>>If you are wrong then testing only one program is enough to prove it. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>Deep Fritz doesn't see the draw yet after one hour, but it's getting there. Now >>>I am trying with Deep Shredder and I might leave one of them computing the >>>position overnight. >>> >>>What has been the evaluation that came closest to 0.00? >>> >>>Enrique >>> >>>Comp Deep Blue - Kasparov,G >>>1r6/5kp1/RqQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by DEEP FRITZ : >>> >><SNIP> >>>45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Kg1 >>> ± (1.00) Depth: 19/50 00:25:38 1907813kN >>>45...Qe3! >>> ² (0.69) Depth: 20/52 00:56:36 4195172kN >>> >>>(Irazoqui, Cadaqués 27.02.2001) >> >>I have let various versions of Crafty search this position for very long periods >>of time in the past. I've had it return what looks like a draw score at around >>ply 21 or so, and then at the next ply the score will go back up and the line >>will change a lot! I never could figure out why this was. >> >>BTW, there is a good line posted at the bottom of http://www.rebel.nl/db2.htm >>for this position. It looks like Fritz is following it fairly well so far, but >>Crafty also looked to be following it when it found the drawscore, then it >>changed its mind away from the line, and again the score started to rise. :( > >Same thing with Deep Fritz. What I find surprising is that Deep Blue expected >46... Qxc6, when Deep Fritz, Deep Shredder beta and Junior 7 beta, for instance, >pick Qe3 very quickly. > >Enrique > > >Comp Deep Blue - Kasparov,G >1r6/5kp1/RqQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by DEEP FRITZ : > >45...Qxc6 > ± (0.91) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Be7 47.Bd5+ Ke8 48.c7 Rc8 49.Ra7 > ± (1.16) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 10kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Be7 47.Bd5+ Ke8 48.c7 Rc8 49.Ra7 > ± (1.16) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 10kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Be7 47.Bd5+ Ke8 48.c7 Rc8 49.Ra7 > ± (1.16) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 10kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Be7 47.Bd5+ Ke8 48.c7 Rc8 49.Ra7 > ± (1.16) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 10kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Be7 47.Bd5+ Ke8 48.c7 Rc8 49.Ra7 > ± (1.16) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 10kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Be7 47.Bd5+ Ke8 48.c7 Rc8 49.Ra7 > ± (1.16) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 10kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Bc7 47.Ra7 Rc8 48.Rb7 Ke7 49.Rxb5 > ± (1.37) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 31kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Bc7 47.Ra7 Rc8 48.Rb7 Ke7 49.Ke2 Kd6 50.Rxb5 > +- (1.44) Depth: 8/17 00:00:00 65kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Bc7 47.Ra7 Rc8 48.Rb7 Ke7 49.Ke2 Kd6 50.Rxb5 > +- (1.44) Depth: 9/19 00:00:00 115kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Kf8 47.Ra7 Rc8 48.Rb7 Ra8 49.Rxb5 Ra3 50.Rd5 Ke7 > +- (1.53) Depth: 10/22 00:00:00 305kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Kf8 47.Ra7 Rc8 48.Rb7 Rc7 49.Rxb5 Ke7 > +- (1.56) Depth: 11/21 00:00:00 1078kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Kf8 47.Ra7 Rc8 48.Rb7 Rc7 49.Rxb5 Ke7 > +- (1.56) Depth: 12/22 00:00:01 1597kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Rc8 47.Ra5 Ke7 48.Rxb5 h5 49.Bd5 Rb8 50.Rxb8 Bxb8 > +- (1.78) Depth: 13/26 00:00:02 3199kN >45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Rc8 47.Ra5 h5 48.Rxb5 h4 49.Rb7+ Rc7 50.Bd5+ Ke7 51.Bxc4 > +- (1.84) Depth: 14/26 00:00:06 6898kN >45...Qe3! > +- (1.81) Depth: 14/39 00:00:21 25200kN >45...Qe3! 46.Qd7+ Kg8 47.Qxd6 Rf8 48.Qe6+ Kh7 49.Qe7 Rg8 50.Bf3 Qc1+ 51.Kf2 > ± (1.22) Depth: 14/39 00:00:29 34959kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 Re7 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Kg3 Qe1+ 51.Kh3 > ± (1.16) Depth: 15/39 00:00:58 71272kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Kg1 > ± (1.28) Depth: 16/43 00:01:48 133552kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Bf3 > ± (1.28) Depth: 17/45 00:04:03 301257kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Bf3 > ± (1.28) Depth: 18/46 00:09:44 723368kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Kg1 > ± (1.06) Depth: 19/50 00:22:41 1678502kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Kg1 > ± (1.00) Depth: 20/49 01:04:45 4818191kN >45...Qe3! > ² (0.69) Depth: 21/54 02:32:36 11295715kN >45...Qe3! 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.h4 h5 48.Bf3 Qc1+ 49.Kf2 Qd2+ 50.Be2 Qf4+ 51.Kg1 > ² (0.31) Depth: 21/54 04:29:02 19961605kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 > ² (0.31) Depth: 22/57 09:15:31 41587594kN >45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 > ² (0.47) Depth: 23/56 17:29:25 78776519kN, tb=3 > >(Irazoqui, Cadaqués 28.02.2001) Compare to the analysis of yace after few hours of playing against itself and going back. 1...Qe3 2.Qxd6 Re8 3.Qd7+ Re7 4.Qc6 Qxe4 5.d6 Qd3+ 6.Kg1 Re8 7.Kh2 Qxf5 8.Ra2 Rd8 9.Qxb5 Rxd6 10.Qxc4+ Kg6 11.Ra7 Kh7 It seems that the lines are similiar and I suspect that humans did not analyze this line to prove if it is a draw or not a draw. I did not believe that this traingle Qc6-d6-d7-c6 can be a good idea for white but maybe humans are wrong and it is not a draw. It is clear that deeper blue could not find this idea otherwise the programmer could tell the public that it is not a draw so practically kasparov could draw by playing Qe3 but it does not answer the question if Qe3 is objectively a draw. Uri
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