Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 10:51:16 05/06/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 06, 2001 at 09:38:05, Uri Blass wrote:
>On May 06, 2001 at 09:12:17, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On May 05, 2001 at 21:44:48, stuart taylor wrote:
>>
>>>On May 05, 2001 at 08:32:31, Jorge Pichard wrote:
>>>
>>>>According to this performance rating of this match, the previous Deep Fritz had
>>>>a performance rating of 2683. If the newer version of Fritz 7 gain an additional
>>>>45 rating points in strength, plus the advantage of being able to use faster
>>>>hardware for the actual Kramnik match, then we could conclude that Fritz 7 could
>>>>well be rated over 2750.
>>
>>So at a 8 processor Xeon according to this PR nonsense it would
>>be rated like 3000 :)
>
>I do not see how did you get 3000
>The 2683 performance of Fritz also was not tournament time control but at 1
>hour/game.
>
>It is clear that Fritz like other known programs has no chance against kramnik
>and I do not see the point of playing against him.
>
>Deep Fritz is a known identity and I do not believe in the ability of chessbase
>to do big productive changes in Fritz after Deep Fritz.
>
>It will be more interesting to see Kramnik playing against a program that he
>even does not know the name of it when the program can be changed between the
>games when the only thing that he can know is that he is playing against a
>computer and that the organizers decided about the exact program that he plays
>before every game.
>
>These are the only conditions when a match against kramnik may be interesting.
>I believe that even at these condition the public will see kramnik as a
>favourite.
>
>Uri
Oh well we completely agree on the outcome of a match,
nevertheless a 8 processor Xeon is 5.6Ghz in total.
Versus a K6-2 450 is just 450Mhz and has very little RAM usual.
At SSDF programs that run on 2 times faster hardware,
Let's quote the list:
I see fritz 5.32 at K6-2 450 rated at 2547
and the same program at a 200MMX rated 2477
Now we can argue long about relative speeds, but for
Fritz the k6-2 is about 2 times faster. whether it's 1.8 or 2.1
is not that interesting.
The difference is a full 70 points.
For junior 5.0 the difference is 100 points, though
probably a good reason to explain it would be that junior is in C++
and fritz in assembly.
Anyway, let's take the average and round it downwards. 80 points.
Now i do not know how fast or slow a K6-2 with 128mb RAM is for
Fritz, but i know it's dead slow For DIEP. L2 cache is at busspeed
even (100Mhz only!)
Now compare that to the huge shared hashtable at a 8 processor Xeon.
Even if we don't take that into account, then it's not hard to imagine
that with this new xeon core the machine is 14 times faster. Can be 10
can be 16. For me it's not comparable the speed. More like 20 times.
For fritz it's less as that as it's in assembly but it also profits
from the new intel processor bigtime, so 14 times looks like
a cool rounded down estimate.
So if we take deep fritz rating which by hand has been tuned down:
1 Deep Fritz 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2650
14 times faster if we take the 2 log out of that. then that's 3.58
If i multiply that with 80 rating points then
2650 + 3.58 x 80 = 2650 + 287 = 2937
Closer to 3000 as to Kramnik's FIDE rating :)
Now of course it's all a rude estimate. I do not believe speed
brings something for Fritz, but if we extrapolate speed and
search depth then OBVIOUSLY kramnik should lose the match with
BIG numbers.
No one on earth has 2937 right now.
So from my viewpoint there are 2 explanations
a) Kramnik loses nearly all games in the match and Fritz
does have 2937
b) Kramnik doesn't lose the match but wins it bigtime
and the ratings as calculated by SSDF say in fact nothing
about human versus computer relationship.
Now b is very obvious IMHO. If we just take into account that
at SSDF only computers play each other we could already know this.
Anyway i did the above calculation again (i remember Bob already
did the calculation quite some times) to show that there are more
factors to consider as a lineair extrapolation of hardware!
Deep Fritz 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2650 34 -32 470 66% 2537
Fritz 6.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2626 24 -24 897 66% 2512
Junior 6.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2594 22 -21 1109 64% 2490
Chess Tiger 12.0 DOS 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2578 27 -27 691 62% 2492
Fritz 5.32 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2547 26 -26 741 59% 2485
Nimzo 7.32 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2547 24 -24 857 59% 2485
Nimzo 8.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2539 30 -30 546 58% 2486
Gandalf 4.32f 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2529 29 -29 584 52% 2518
Junior 5.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2528 26 -25 750 57% 2476
10 Hiarcs 7.01 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2526 37 -37 361 48%
2539
11 Hiarcs 7.32 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2525 27 -27 679 56%
2481
12 SOS 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2524 23 -23 925 53%
2501
13 Rebel Century 3.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2514 31 -31 504 50% 2516
14 Goliath Light 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2496 30 -30 546 46% 2527
15 Crafty 17.07/CB 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2487 24 -24 857 47% 2505
16 Nimzo 99 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2486 26 -26 731 51%
2481
17 Fritz 5.32 64MB P200 MMX 2477 19 -19 1338 56%
2437
18 Chessmaster 6000 64MB P200 MMX 2473 61 -53 184 76% 2277
18 Hiarcs 7.32 64MB P200 MMX 2473 24 -24 844 59%
2407
20 MChess Pro 8.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2471 32 -32 474 45% 2507
21 Fritz 5.0 PB29% 67MB P200 MMX 2459 23 -22 1005 66%
2342
22 Hiarcs 7.0 64MB P200 MMX 2458 21 -21 1112 55%
2419
23 Nimzo 99 64MB P200 MMX 2446 23 -23 885 51%
2438
24 Junior 5.0 64MB P200 MMX 2433 20 -20 1185 49%
2440
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