Author: Martin Schubert
Date: 03:48:46 06/26/01
Go up one level in this thread
On June 26, 2001 at 06:44:44, Mark Young wrote: >On June 26, 2001 at 06:38:30, Martin Schubert wrote: > >>On June 26, 2001 at 06:30:58, Mark Young wrote: >> >>>On June 26, 2001 at 06:23:07, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: >>> >>>>On June 26, 2001 at 05:15:56, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>I don?t think this that arguments passes the laugh test, most players? trainee >>>>>with some kind of computer aid, chess bases, programs etc. They have too, to >>>>>compete in today?s chess tournaments. Programs have been around for many years, >>>>>and I would doubt this is any players first time seeing a chess computer. >>>> >>>>Let me tell you about some of my real life experiences with this. >>>> >>>>When Mat(h) (Belgian program that competed in Leiden) was first >>>>publicly presented, an exhibition match was played vs about 34 >>>>volunteers. >>>> >>>>It was quite well publisided so players up to 2250 ELO joined (this >>>>is much for Belgium). >>>> >>>>In the games, most opponents were crushed. Although the program is >>>>not very strong at all (look at the Leiden results), even the strongest >>>>players lost without much chances, or had to content themselves with >>>>a draw. >>>> >>>>There was one, at that time 1300 rated player, that did quite the >>>>opposite. He crushed it. Rather easily even. (I knew this player and >>>>had been watching the match closely) >>>> >>>>How come this 1300 did so well even though the 2200's had trouble? >>>> >>>>This player sometimes played on chess severs, and was familiar with >>>>chessprograms, and had played them before. He knew where they were >>>>weak. In the Mat(h) game he castled on opposite sides and stormed >>>>Maths kingside. The program had no clue what was going on and lost. >>>> >>>>Most of the 1800-2200 players knew Fritz quite well. They used it to >>>>look up games. They used it for analysis. They sometimes played in >>>>sparring or friend mode. But they never played it seriously full- >>>>strength. They had no idea how to beat the program. Most of them >>>>played totally open postions. I saw nearly no closed manoeuvering >>>>games. They were just playing like they played other humans. And it >>>>didn't work. >>> >>>Is this what is happening with Chesstiger, the IMs and GMs are just Ignorant >>>on how to cope with ChessTiger. >>> >>>I guess there is no way to prove that, so your safe if that is what you believe. >> >>Oh yes, there is a way to prove that. Just let someone play who is experienced >>with playing computers. I know someone how offered to play against a computer >>and he wanted to show he is better than a GM. But nobody was interested in such >>a match. You know why? Because it's not PC. The only thing you can learn from >>that is that computers are not that good as everyone tells. But that doesn't fit >>in the "Computers have super-super-GM-strength"-hype. >>Just look at some games posted here, how to beat programs with 2.Na3 for >>example. >>A few month ago Eduard asked to give him any opening and any program. He wanted >>to beat that program in that opening. He did. Very soon. Do you think that would >>be possible against a GM? > >Look at what you are saying. Yeah anyone can sit and find a win this way at home >against one line of play. Yes it is easy to exploit the computer programs under >those conditions.....SO WHAT! My grandma could do that and she is dead. > >The trick is being able to win under tournament conditions where you can not >control the lines of play. > It's not a problem of lines! It's a problem of understanding what is important in anti-computer-chess comparing with what is important in usual chess. Do you think 1. e4 c5 2. Na3 or 1. e4 c5 2. e5 is a problem of lines, you can't get in tournaments? Of course you need ideas how to beat computers not only in the sicilian. But it's impossible to put all these things into an opening book. > >> >>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>GCP
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