Author: Thorsten Czub
Date: 14:53:47 05/22/98
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On May 22, 1998 at 17:18:37, Don Dailey wrote: >Thorsten, > >I see you constantly post about knowledge and search speed as if >it is completely separate, there is some reason to believe you >do indeed partition this stuff into black and white. Generally >you seem to view speed contempously and knowledge with warmth. 1 from 4 times. Maybe. I can live with 1/4. >But this is only my general impression, forgive me if I am wrong >here. :-)) I have forgiven you. :-)) >I like to view a chess program as a "black box" that spits out >moves. We don't care what happens inside the box, and whatever >happens there is hidden from view. A good question for all of >us is could we really tell the difference if we could not see >node counts, iteration numbers and claims of speed. What if all >we saw as output was a move? Could you identify the fast >programs? > >- Don Maybe not. I would not have identified Tiger 11.2 !! I would have identified Nimzo by watching the game: Paderborn 1998, CTiger-Nimzo98 There Nimzo made many "null-moves" that would have made it easy to identify it. Of course I can make mistakes by doing the turing-test. But studying the main-lines, evals and the MOMENT (=time) correlation WHEN which program SAW the point, gives me exactly THE NEEDED information to identify about chess-strength. If I would not see this information, and only have black box, working with programmers would not very good possible. My friend Bernd has 2430 ELO. He is not able to tell you by looking at the main-lines/evals which chess program is stronger. But he can tell you which program played stronger. BUT : he still is unable to say from ONE game which program is stronger. I can do so from watching ONE game. HE needs many games, and THAN he is able to follow it. I have tried this with him in an experiment 1993 in munuch, championship. At the beginning of the tournament I told him hiarcs would win. I showed him the program Mark and I tested before munich. He was unable to FEEL it. I said to him, wait until we are in munich, i will teach you to understand - to watch the right way on the main-lines. After a few games of hiarcs he was able. We replayed all munich games in the train on the journey back from munich to Dortmund and I saw by his comments that he WAS able to understand what I felt before. So even a strong chess player is no guaranty to diagnosis about chess-strength. Strong chess players often do not know WHAT is complicate for programs and what not. They project from their own problems in chess and think the machines are the same. But Bernd WAS able to FEEL what I felt after some days in munich. In the end he was as enthusiastic about hiarcs as I was, but he had of course the much deeper understanding of chess. He told/advised me about HIS insights, and i told him what to watch out when you want to value chess programs. A black box would handicap me. But not him. I NEED the information from the programs. Sorry. I am not a good chess player but I have seen strong chess players telling bullshit during the games (Ossi Weiner often bluffs and also Rainer Menningen : both Mephisto team behave like POPES , especially when they are wrong. During playoff-game Genius-Hiarcs MARK and BERND and I had seen what Menningen and Weiner did not saw although they had the same data in front). Also Ossi showed no insights in the game Genius-CSTal in Paderborn 1995. In Paderborn 1998 i have seen the same behaviour in the beginning of the game Clever + smart vs. ChessTiger 11.2. Ingo and Stefan THOUGHT and expressed their ideas about the game. I never subscribed their ideas. And when the fail lows appeared, i was right. It was the same in the game comet-Tiger and Tiger-Gandalf. I saw very early that Tiger-Gandalf will be lost for Tiger. I knew Gandalf and Tiger. No matter what CHESSSSSSS is on board. No matter that Vincent has more knowledge about computerchess and chess (he is a programmer and a strong chess player). All these FACTS are not important. I knew that Tiger would ugly lose. This was my main pain. I sat there, saw that a draw would be enough for winning the tournament. But I also knew that Tiger would be lost in this kind of masked/hidden king attack. When the attack came into SEARCH area, it was too late. Chess Tiger should have seen the problem WHEN IT WAS NOT LOST, BEFORE the king attack happened. But - there WAS NOTHING to see (with search). Gandalf SAW this because of static evaluations. He moved the right moves, without SEEING something concrete. If you want we can analyse the games here, if this helps. I am not good in chess. Not in programming. But I know (=feel) when something goes wrong. And than I speak it out. Call it ignorance. When my RESULTS in prophecy are as good as the ones who can play better chess or program , than why criticize me for beeing b/w ? I am not. I get all my info out of the way the programs play. out of the game, the main-line and the evals. Search depth and correlation of fail-lows and other things. If you make me a black-box (like in the dedicated machine times) I need more time than with information.
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