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Subject: Re: New crap statement ? Perpetuum mobile

Author: Bruce Moreland

Date: 10:32:09 10/05/01

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On October 04, 2001 at 18:42:17, Dave Gomboc wrote:

>On October 04, 2001 at 14:54:01, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>On October 04, 2001 at 06:46:48, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>On October 04, 2001 at 04:56:08, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>The difference is that the other side(I and Bruce) do not say that they know
>>>>that there is a super linear improvement but that we cannot say that it is
>>>>impossible with the known algorithm of today.
>>>>
>>>>I said that the only way is to investigate the problem by test positions in
>>>>order to see if programs can get a super linear improvement from 2 processors.
>>>
>>>But that is not the only way, you can also use logic.
>>>This is like explaning to an inventor why he can't make a perpetuum mobile
>>>machine. If he doesn't understand the laws of physics, does not know of energy
>>>conservation, then he will keep arguing till the day he die, that "we can not
>>>know for certain until we have tried everything".
>>>
>>>We _do_ know, there is proof and Bob has outlined it several times, but if you
>>>won't listen or understand, then we have a communication problem.
>>>
>>>-S.
>>
>>A perpetual motion machine is impossible.  A gasoline engine is not impossible.
>>If you assert that a gasoline engine can exist, and someone else accuses you of
>>trying to invent a perpetual motion machine, you can point out how the two
>>differ, and you can describe how the engine can work in practice, but if they
>>keep telling you that you are violating the laws of physics, what can you do?
>>
>>How would you like it if when I got into a sticky point with one of my
>>arguments, I wrote a big long thing declaring that you don't exist and could
>>therefore be ignored.
>>
>>Algorithm A is a single-processor algorithm designed to operate in domain D.
>>Algorithm B is a dual-processor algorithm derived from A, and applied to domain
>>D.
>>
>>There is nothing that would preclude B from being more than twice as fast as A.
>>A may not be the most optimal algorithm.  Adding parallelism in order to create
>>B may have changed the algorithm significantly.  The two "halves" of B may
>>interact profitably.  Domain D may not be well enough understood.
>>
>>None of this results in any risk of the planet splitting open or Isaac Newton
>>being refuted.
>>
>>bruce
>
>Okay, I've said this elsewhere, but here's a good place to clear things up.
>
>Bob and I are _not_ arguing that B cannot be super-linearly faster than A.
>
>Bob and I are arguing that B's existance proves the existance of Algorithm C, a
>sequential algorithm that B will not be super-linearly faster than.  If domain D
>is not well-enough understood, then it may be necessary to implement C as a
>sequential simulation of B.
>
>Bob and I are furthermore also stating that since we know that C exists and that
>we can implement C, it is not appropriate to report data comparing only A and B.
>
>Dave

Yes, that's true, and what I'm saying is not hard to understand either.

I am saying that the discovery of a consistent super-linear parallel result
should result in investigation, the point of which is to improve the serial
version (which will probably improve the parallel version, too).

http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?191831

Look at the last couple of paragraphs of mine, where I lay this out, and then
Bob's last paragraph, where he immediately disagrees with something that I am
not even saying.

This is like being on an Escher staircase.

bruce



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