Author: Slater Wold
Date: 09:01:08 03/13/02
Go up one level in this thread
On March 13, 2002 at 11:29:08, K. Burcham wrote: > >After reading Slater's post with crafty analysis on Nolot 6, I was curious about >Deep Shredder6 and Fritz7 in this position. > >I know most here are very familiar with the Nolot test positions. >If you are not familiar with the Nolot positions, there are various sources on >the internet showing lots of info on these positions. >Here is a good one. >http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/nolot/nolot.htm > >Nolot 6 is one that has not been solved. When I played through the line, it is >easy to see why programs cannot show + eval for black. After making the first >move in the line, axb5, Deep Shredder6 and Fritz7, cannot see the winning line >that leads to the Bf5 move. > >Interesting comment: by Feng-Hsiung Hsu >"It probably would tie down the machine for a few days to find axb5. >Perhaps we will try it sometime later". > >If Hsu thinks it would take Deep Blue several days to find axb5, then I do not >expect any of todays programs to find this move with default settings and >position learning cleared. > >The game moves were 1...axb5 2.Qxa8 Bd4 3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 0-0 5.Ke1 Qh4+ >6.g3 Qf6 7.Bf4 when black could win the game by 7...Bf5 > >Deep Shredder6 Paderborn 2x1533 mhz 512 hash >84.735.221.779 nodes > > 19.01 746:18 -0.64 1...Bd7 2.h3 Bd4 3.Nfxd4 cxd4 4.hxg4 Qb6 5.g5 Ra7 6.Qa5 >Qxa5 7.Nd6+ Ke7 8.bxa5 Kxd6 9.Bd2 (21.009.792.988) 469.1 > 19.02 866:49 -0.63++ 1...Nd7 2.Nd6+ Kf8 3.h3 Nb6 4.Qe8+ Qxe8 5.Nxe8 Kxe8 >6.hxg4 Bd4 7.Nxd4 cxd4 8.Kf3 f6 9.Be2 Na4 10.Bd2 b6 11.Rhf1 Bd7 12.Rad1 >(24.324.734.715) 467.6 > 19.02 1117:34 -0.37 1...Nd7 2.Nd6+ Kf8 3.h3 Nb6 4.Nxb7 Bxb7 5.Qb3 Bd4 6.Nxd4 >Nf6 7.Nf5 Nxe4 8.Qe3 Nxd5 9.cxd5 Qxd5 (31.242.250.001) 465.9 > 20.01 2442:56 -0.60 1...Nd7 2.h3 Nb6 3.Nc7+ Ke7 4.Qb3 Qxc7 5.hxg4 Bd4 6.Nxd4 >exd4 7.bxc5 Qxc5 8.Kd3 Nd7 9.Bf4 Qa5 10.Kxd4 Qc5+ 11.Kd3 Qf2 12.Be3 Ne5+ 13.Kd4 >(68.187.263.665) 465.1 >best move: Nb8-d7 time: 3000:30.954 min n/s: 470.670 CPU 199.9% nodes: >84.735.221.779 > > > [D] Qnbqk2r/1p3ppp/8/1ppPp3/1PP1P1n1/P4N2/4KbPP/R1B2B1R b - - 0 1 >In this position Fritz7 would not play the third move of Bd4 after 42 hours at >depth 19/56. >After 33 hours,with the eval still at +2.00, Fritz does not see that white is in >trouble with it's Queen and King's position compromised. > >Fritz 7: 1000 mhz > >2...Qc7 3.Ra2 Bd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.bxc5 Nxh2 6.Rxh2 Qxh2 7.d6 Qh5+ 8.Kf2 > +- (2.12) Depth: 17/53 04:30:17 7453634kN >2...Na6! > +- (2.09) Depth: 17/53 05:44:59 9545803kN >2...Na6! > +- (1.94) Depth: 17/53 06:37:58 11033614kN >2...Na6 3.cxb5 Nc7 4.Qa5 b6 5.Qxb6 cxb4 6.Qa5 Qd6 7.Qxb4 Bc5 > +- (1.84) Depth: 17/53 07:38:22 12723411kN >2...Na6 3.cxb5 Nc7 4.Qa5 b6 5.Qxb6 cxb4 6.Qa5 Qd6 7.Bb2 Bc5 > +- (1.97) Depth: 18/57 11:29:58 19187812kN >2...Na6 3.cxb5 Nc7 4.Qa5 b6 5.Qxb6 cxb4 6.Qa5 Qd6 7.h3 Bb6 > +- (1.97) Depth: 19/56 33:41:22 56655384kN > > > [D] Qnbqk2r/1p3ppp/8/1ppPp3/1PPbP1n1/P4N2/4K1PP/R1B2B1R w - - 0 1 > >Fritz 7: > >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 bxc4 5.Ke1 d3 6.Bg5 f6 > +- (3.63) Depth: 7/28 00:00:00 196kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 bxc4 5.Ke1 c3 6.Be2 Kf8 7.Bxg4 Qh4+ 8.Kf1 > +- (3.84) Depth: 8/33 00:00:01 536kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 bxc4 5.Ke1 d3 6.Bd2 Kf8 7.Rc1 Qh4+ 8.g3 > +- (3.69) Depth: 9/32 00:00:03 1389kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 bxc4 5.Ke1 c3 > +- (3.81) Depth: 10/36 00:00:08 3462kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 d3+ 5.Ke1 bxc4 6.Bd2 Kd7 7.Qa7 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 > +- (3.97) Depth: 11/40 00:00:25 9947kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 d3+ 5.Ke1 bxc4 6.Bd2 > +- (4.03) Depth: 12/43 00:01:09 29053kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 bxc4 5.Ke1 d3 6.Bg5 f6 7.Bd2 > +- (4.19) Depth: 13/44 00:03:25 90163kN >3.Nxd4 cxd4 4.Qxb8 bxc4 5.Ke1 d3 6.Bg5 f6 7.Bd2 > +- (4.19) Depth: 14/45 00:09:04 242088kN > >kburcham Nice post. Don't believe any computers are going to solve this one anytime soon. *MOST* computers cannot even follow the line, as you have proved. This position is above and beyond what we have today. By far.
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