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Subject: Re: positions only one program can solve

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 17:48:43 07/11/98

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On July 11, 1998 at 18:49:39, Roberto Waldteufel wrote:

>
>On July 11, 1998 at 13:44:32, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>
>>On July 11, 1998 at 11:45:25, blass uri wrote:
>>
>>>I am interested in positions only one program can solve
>>>
>>>Vincent Diepeveen posted on June 29 the following 2 positions
>>>r4rk1/pp1n1p1p/1nqP2p1/2b1P1B1/4NQ2/1B3P2/PP2K2P/2R5 w - - bm
>>>
>>>the solution is Rxc5 and diep found the move after 6:42
>>>and found the advamtage for white after 13:14
>>>he used 60MB hash tables
>>>and I think he used pentium200MMX
>>>my programs found only Bf6 with draw.
>>
>>I thought I posted something about this last week.
>>
>>Mine finds this in two minutes on a P2/300.  The score it gets isn't great, it's
>>a little negative.  Other versions have found this quickly with scores of +2 or
>>more.
>>
>>>can another program solve this position in 1 hour?
>>>
>>>the second position:
>>>r1b2rk1/1p1nbppp/pq1p4/3B4/P2NP3/2N1p3/1PP3PP/R2Q1R1K w - - bm Rxf7
>>>diep found the move after 22 minutes and 43 seconds
>>
>>This one takes four minutes to get a slight positive score, five minutes is +1.
>>
>>I like the Nolot positions, I've been fiddling with them for a few years.  If
>>you want to see more from me, look for "Nolot" in the "old" archives in r.g.c.c,
>>or perhaps even just rec.games.chess.
>>
>>I can get solutions in some of the other Nolot positions as well.
>>
>>>can another program find this move in 1 hour?
>>>
>>>(according to Robert hyatt deep thought solved the position after 2 minutes but
>>>I cannot buy deep thought so it is not important for me)
>>>
>>>in Rebel's homepage there is mate in 30   Rebel can find(all the moves of the
>>>loser are forced).
>>>
>>>can another chess program  find the mate?
>>
>>I can't find it, feel free to post it.
>>
>>Long mates are often the result of positions where one side is in check and has
>>only one legal way out.
>>
>>One very old extension in computer chess involves extending when you make a move
>>that gives check.
>>
>>If you also extend on the reply, when there is only one way out, you get the
>>checking move and the reply without decreasing depth at all.
>>
>>If there is a long forcing sequence you can find mates in very large numbers of
>>moves in just a few nodes.  This has been well-known for years.
>>
>>It is hard to find long mates that don't involve this extension.
>>
>>bruce
>
>Hi Bruce,
>
>I never reduce the depth when the side to move is in check, but I find that if I
>do the same for moves that administer check it sometimes blows my search sky
>high, hanging the machine for an inordinate amount of time. It's a pity, because
>I also found many times that this method discovered long mates as you describe.
>How do you overcome the problem of situations where the number of checks becomes
>excessive, eg a king being chased around the board by a queen that lacks
>supporting pawns or pieces to deliver a mate?
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Roberto


Bruce and I are similar here I think.  I extend on a checking move,
rather than extending to get out of check.  At the next ply, I can extend
if there is only one legal move and I am in check...

The thing that should limit this is being careful.  1.  No more than 1 ply
of extension at a given ply.  More will guarantee a non-terminating search.
2.  repetition code will stop a long series of checks due to a two-time
repetition.  3.  some positions will get very shallow searches because the
checks will extend like mad.  There's nothing you can do for those cases.

This is why I use 3/4 ply for the one-legal-reply-to-check extension,
because that means that I only extend 3 of every 4 one-reply positions...
which gives me a better limit...



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