Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 21:46:03 04/30/02
Go up one level in this thread
On April 30, 2002 at 23:38:18, Slater Wold wrote: >On April 30, 2002 at 23:27:47, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On April 30, 2002 at 16:31:01, Peter McKenzie wrote: >> >>>On April 30, 2002 at 16:01:33, Slater Wold wrote: >>> >>>>On April 30, 2002 at 14:42:50, Jeroen Noomen wrote: >>>> >>>>>During the last 6 - 12 months I have noticed a trend that there are very clear >>>>>indications that non-commercial programmers of chess programs make use of (parts >>>>>of) commercially available books. As I was in Maastricht during the WMCCC in >>>>>2001, lots of speculations and complaints were heard about this topic. From >>>>>several sources I know that also the Rebel books have been ?hacked? by people (I >>>>>will not mention their names, I am sure they know themselves whom I am talking >>>>>about). As the Rebel books are my lifework I want to put a very clear statement >>>>>in this forum. >>>>> >>>>>The Rebel books have been developped by me during a period of almost 14 years. >>>>>Not only is it handmade, it also contains lots of stuff you will not find in >>>>>other books. In the past it has happenend a few times that chess programs were >>>>>caught as not being made by the programmer himself. Examples are Quick Step back >>>>>in 1989, Greif, the several Crafty clones. As we can see from todays rules by >>>>>the ICCA, such programs are not tolerated anymore. And in my view this is fully >>>>>correct. >>>>> >>>>>Jeroen Noomen >>>>>Bookauthor for Rebel and Chess Tiger >>>> >>>>I can understand your frustration. You've worked just as hard as Ed or >>>>Christophe on Rebel/Tiger. No doubt your books add a considerable amount of Elo >>>>to these programs, and I am sure Ed and Christophe are very appreciative of >>>>that. >>>> >>>>However, I must warn you that laying claim to a series of chess opening moves is >>>>not going to be easy to defend. You cannot copyright moves in chess, as you >>>>cannot copyright dance moves. While you can copyright a mvs book, you are >>>>actually only copyrighting the format. Again, you cannot copyright chess moves. >>> >>>This isn't a copyright issue, its not even a legal issue in the traditional >>>sense. It is about the rules for a particular competition, namely the ICCA >>>World Computer Chess Championship. If the rules say that you can't use someone >>>elses book in the tournament (and its not even clear that they do say this), >>>then you can't use someone elses book regardless of what copyright says. >>> >>>Of course ICCA can't send you to jail if you break their rules :-) But they can >>>chuck you out of their tournament. >>> >>> >> >> >> >>Actually copyright law _does_ apply. You can't copyright a single chess >>game, period. But you _can_ copyright a "collection" of games, because the >>work expended to "collect" the games is something that copyright law >>protects. It is very clear in this regard. IE you can't copyright a >>single word, or a definition of a word. But you can copyright a collection >>of words/definitions (called a dictionary of course) quite easily and >>correctly. > >Like I said earlier, a single line, a single move, none of that can be >copyrighted. > >And you cannot copyright a "collection" of games. For example, say someone >published a book (actual paperback book) with 300 Fischer games (no comments, >nothing. Just the games.) and was selling this book for $50. And then someone >else came along and published a book with the same exact 300 games, (in a >different cover and style) for $25. There is *NOTHING* that first person can >do. The Fischer games do NOT belong to him. Sorry, but this is wrong. IE I can _definitely_ copyright a collection such as "Fischer's games where he used the theme 'xxxxx' to break through". All that copyright law requires is that I do some sort of "work" in putting the collection together. Just filtering all of Fischer's games won't fly. But "Fischer's 100 greatest games" is definitely copyrightable as that is a subset of all the games he played and it required work/effort on my part to extract just the games I thought important or related... Again, this is just like a dictionary. _nobody_ can copyright a word or list of words. Nor a definition for a word. But a collection of words that takes work to put together is certainly copyrightable... > >How many versions of dictionaries do we have out there? They are all the same >thing, they all have the same words and definitions in them. ;) They are _not_ all the same. Some have words others don't. The definitions are different for many words... etc. Otherwise there would be massive law suits... The copyright applies to the _work_, not to the _material_ itself... that is why books are copyrighted. Not the words individually. But the work expended to order the words into something that is different/unique... > >However, what that person could do, is insert varations, comments, etc., which >are his ideas. You CAN copyright your own ideas. You cannot copyright someone >elses games, or their "collection" of games though. > >>Opening books fit this perfectly... >> >> >> >> >>>> >>>>I think anyone found 'hacking' a chess program, or its book, should face a >>>>severe punishment. Anyone claiming something is their, when in fact it is not, >>>>should be punished. >>>> >>>>I am not defending these people, I am simply stating the fact that it would be >>>>easier to encrypt the books, than to go after those stealing it.
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