Author: jerry young
Date: 11:34:45 05/04/02
Go up one level in this thread
On May 04, 2002 at 04:12:54, Jeroen Noomen wrote: >On May 03, 2002 at 17:13:59, Slater Wold wrote: > >If you are going to post something about my connection to the Rebel Company, I >would first check this out, f.e. by asking me. For me it is very funny that you >talk about law and come with some statements that you haven't checked. To be >very clear about this: I am not an employee of the Rebel company. > >Besides, the matter I was discussing here in this forum had to do with hacking >the book (your point nr. 5 below). People had hacked the code in which the Rebel >book was written and converted it to their own format. And I find it fully >correct that something should be done about this. > >To add another point to this discussion: What about the various possibilities >under the available GUI's? Any program that runs under such a GUI can use ANY >book that is available. Giving it a huge advantage over other programs that do >not run under this specific GUI. It is easy to melt together several books and >use them for your own program. As far as I am concerned, this is very worrysome >for the W(M)CCC and other important competitions. I was in Maastricht last year >and I saw that programs like Ferret, Crafty, Diep, Spider Chess, XiniX, Pharaon >were severely handicapped by the fact that they had to fight programs that used >'loaned' books. > >A few people tried to convince me 'well Jeroen, it makes it easy for you: You >just have to crack a few books to get a good result for Tiger'. But as I am a >person who wants fair competition, I don't like this trend and therefore I want >to do something about it. If rules stay the same, the ICCA says 'it is not a >problem for us' okay, so be it. But there HAS TO BE a discussion about it. Of >course after a final decision has been made, I will always ask myself what to >do. If I don't like it or come to the conclusion that unfair competition is >allowed, I simply will not attend to such a tournament anymore. > >One final point about your last line (If you don't want somebody to steal your >lines, don't sell them): Suppose I would do this? Than thousands of customers >are losing the possibility to learn from my books as there are some guys who >want to illegally hack them. Is this what you want? Some people spoiling it for >the rest? > stealing books ??> once publically played in competition or on the internet, they bacome public domain. One Icc player writes his own books, but, since they are a matter of public record, they cannot be copywrited,a s any can view and incorporate thiose into their books if they are industrious enough. >Jeroen > > >>First of all, I want to state that I do NOT support and/or condone the stealing >>of others works for their own good. If you want a good opening book, make your >>own. Jeroen spent a LOT of time perfecting his book, and it IS his work, not >>anyone elses. Don't be lazy. Make your own. >> >>HOWEVER, in every case, there are 2 sides. Each side has their arguement, and >>not always is someone clearly the winner of the arguement. Remember, even the >>most cold-blooded killers get a defense in court, and who wants to defend >>someone who you KNOW is guilty? Neverless, I take legal matters such as Robert >>Hyatt takes math and science. You post a thread that 432423 + 234325 is >>somewhere around 66,000 and Hyatt's going to add them together, and give you an >>ACTUAL figure. That's all I am doing here, giving an ACTUAL figure. >> >> >>The company I work for gives all its employees free legal representation. While >>not all legal procedings are covered, all questions/research over the phone are. >> I called a "company" lawyer a few days ago and presented him with Jeroen's >>problem. This is what he told me: >> >>1.) If Jeroen has *ever* gotten paid 1 penny from Rebel, the books are not his. >> If Ed or Christophe have ever bought him dinner, given him any kind of reward >>and/or compensation, he has NO legal claim to his books. This is a "for-hire" >>copyright, and according to US and International copyright laws, if you are >>compensated for something that recieves and/or is claimed under copyright laws, >>the copyright is not that of the creator, rather the person who paid for the >>work. >> >>2.) Because the books are sold as part of a "Chess Program" the book would >>actual fall under the "Chess Program" copyright. You cannot copyright 10 things >>and sell them all under the same title. They all must be copyrighted together. >>In other words, works are protected under copyright. NOT parts of work. >> >>3.) Only the code that generates chess moves are protected under copyright. >>Not the actual moves that it plays. Example: If I can get Crafty to play every >>single move that Rebel 4.0 will play, at the same ply, same speed, with the same >>PV, but can do it with at least 40% different code, I am not in violation of any >>copyright laws. This is the same part of the law that makes it impossible for >>me as a chess player, to get sued for copyright infrigment if I am caught using >>a chess program in a REAL chess match (cheating). Once again, only the code of >>the program is covered under copyright laws, NOT the moves it makes. >> >>4.) Because the book is SOLD, it holds "free use". Example: Say I as a human, >>were to study Jeroen's book for a year. Can he sue me because I play his >>opening lines in a REAL OTB game? NO HE CANNOT. Not even if there comes a day >>where I have Jeroen's entire tournament book in my head. Therefore, if I put >>work into going through his books, and import them into my engine, there is no >>copyright violation. Because I am using knowledge that is readily available to >>ANYONE who has bought the program, and importing them based on what the program >>I bought is telling me, I have every right as a paying customer to use the >>knowledge given to me by this program. >> >>5.) It IS illegal to hack a computer program to extract ANY data that it would >>never display on the screen. Therefore, if I obtained Jeroen's book by hacking >>the program and/or book format, I would be in violation of SEVERAL laws. >>Including copyright laws. >> >>And to boot: >> >>6.) Because Jeroen is an employee of Rebel, his actions and/or threats are a >>direct reflection of the Rebel company. Therefore, if Jeroen convinces the ICCA >>to write a rule that says an opening book must be original, and there comes a >>time where he claims someone is using his book, Jeroen and Rebel better be damn >>sure they've copied it in an illegal way. Cause calling someone out as a >>cheater is slander, and what is the big deal. once anybodys booit usually comes at a hefty price. >> >> >>Like I said, I am not protecting anyone who may want, or who may have stole >>Jeroen's work. But it's not exactly "illegal". If you don't want someone to >>steal your lines, don't sell them. .. so..
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.