Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 11:57:20 05/28/02
Go up one level in this thread
On May 27, 2002 at 23:55:39, Allen Lake wrote:
>On May 26, 2002 at 19:41:30, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>
>>Yes and in the case of Linux it can be achieved by making the GUI as close as
>>possible to Windows. KDE is doing approximately that, but they should stick even
>>more to the "Windows-like" idea.
>>
>>But it's not enough and I believe that even some more technical aspects should
>>be made more Windows-like. It would attract people like me, and we are many. And
>>we are opinion leader, somehow. At least to some modest extend.
>
>
>When the overal Linux community realizes that this is the quickest road to
>mainstream acceptance, then it will happen. Unfortunately, a lot of the Linux
>community seems determined to stay "different" from Windows. To those folks,
>mainstream acceptance will be inevitable once they've proved that Linux is
>better than Windows.
>
>Unfortunately, they are too young to know that "good enough" now usually beats
>"better" later.
Absolutely. Better is not the goal. Linux might already be better, but if nobody
is able to know because they don't use it being better is of little use.
And as I said, the world needs an alternative. Even if slightly technically
inferior.
>>I use tons of DOS utilities every day, but I guess it is possible to find
>>approximate replacements for them in Linux. But that takes time (I have to
>>search the Internet and tries lots of them, probably more than one week (not
>>full time however).
>
>
>If you could be a little more specific, others might be able to help you in the
>search. Hopefully we'd all benefit from the attempt, at least.
I have to make a list of everything I use, that alone can take a while.
One of the first thing I have tried is to find a way to play MPG files. Just
*finding* (not even trying it) took me one hour or more. And it looked complex.
Libraries to download from several different places, command lines needed to
compile some modules... I just gave up.
If these guys believe that the users will compile stuffs they are not living on
the same planet as me.
Not that I would not be able to do it if I wanted to. That's not the question.
It's just that at that point I realized that the guys have no idea about the
real world.
>>Then there are applications that I have not written but are essential for me.
>>For example I have an IDE to create Palm applications. The compiler itself is
>>GCC so I guess it would work under Linux (but how much time will I have to
>>invest before I get it to work?). The IDE is a Windows application, so here I
>>have a problem. KDEstudio could be used to some extend, but I would not be able
>>to create resources for Palm applications from inside the KDEstudio.
>
>
>I imagine you've already tried the IDE under Wine, but Win4Lin or VMWare might
>also be an option here.
No I haven't tried WINE on this IDE. The few programs I tried failed, and they
were simple programs. The IDE in question has an InstallShield and is using the
MFCs, I just did not attempt to install it.
I'm not complaining too much about this. Wine has not reached 1.0 at this time,
so it is still under construction.
It's just that at this time I don't expect to be able to use my Windows programs
and so I think I need to find replacements for all of them.
>>Finally I have the universal problem to be able to use Word and Excel documents.
>>It would be possible to convert all my existing documents one by one to the
>>Koffice applications, maybe, but I find these applications to be in an early
>>state of developpement at that time. And naturally I would have a problem every
>>time someone sends me an MSOffice document by email.
>
>
>Star Office and Open Office are making some strides here, but they are not yet
>100 percent compatible with MS Office. This will probably be the toughest nut
>to crack, unless Win4Lin or VMWare can help.
>
>
>>But Linux has a target, and it is Windows. If nothing is done to try to catch up
>>with Windows, Linux will slowly die. It will not die abruptly like BeOS, but it
>>will vanish little by little.
>
>
>I don't think Linux will vanish, but, in the situation you pose, it will become
>more and more marginalized and probably fade back to a hobbyist's OS.
Yes. The result is the same.
>>The problem is that Windows is a fast target. If at the time of release of WINE
>>1.0 Microsoft and the whole industry is prepared to launch 64 bits computers and
>>OS, all the great effort invested in WINE will be as useful as the great effort
>>IBM invested in making OS/2 Warp a perfect Windows 3.1 clone. OS/2 Warp worked,
>>but too late.
>>
>>Microsoft is very good at rendering its own products obsolete in a very short
>>period of time, and that is the reason why just "progress" in Linux is not
>>enough. It must be progress at the right pace. And it is far from being the
>>case, as I have been able to see 3 years after my initial attempt.
>
>
>Since Microsoft's cash flow depends on that fast obsolescence, I don't think
>it's possible to continue in a stern chase. What the commercial Linux companies
>probably have to do is to make their best guess where Microsoft is going to be
>in two years and try to beat them to the spot. Microsoft has traditionally been
>reluctant to completely break compatibility with their old stuff, so take
>advantage of that history, make your best guess what is most likely to be there
>in two years, and make sure Linux has those features completely solid.
You cannot guess.
You cannot guess several hundreds of API function calls. You need to wait until
they are published and then you fight to implement them. The WINE guys are
fighting since 1995 on the Win32 APIs and do not have a working stuff yet.
That takes time, so you are always behind. That's how Microsoft treats the
problem of clones.
>What are those features? I can think of a few -- simple software installs,
>up-to the minute hardware support, simple system administration, GUIs for
>everything -- but I'm sure others can come up with a richer variety of guesses.
>
>
>>>I've discovered that there is a huge difference between the Internet Linux
>>>community and the commercial Linux community. The Internet Linux community has
>>>a disproportionate share of loud and obnoxious zealots who think everything has
>>>to work one way -- their way.
>>
>>
>>That's right. That's why I was calling for "new blood".
>
>
>I'd rather see some new "old blood" joining in the effort. Some folks that know
>their way around the software business. Some folks that have actually had to
>deal with customers. Most importantly, some folks who have seen Microsoft up
>close, either as competitors or as allies -- who know how they think and how
>they operate, where their strengths are and where their weaknesses are.
Yes. Guys in touch with reality.
>>Five years?
>>
>>Who knows where Microsoft will have dragged all its customers to in 5 years.
>
>
>I hope we'll be able to have that good laugh a lot sooner (two years?) and we
>won't care where Microsoft is trying to drag its customers.
I would really love that to happen, naturally.
I give my opinion because I think the Linux community might be very satisfied of
itself at this time, when they still haven't done the hardest part of the work.
>>But I hope you understand why faster is necessary. It is necessary to release
>>your product before the equivalent product of your competitor is considered
>>obsolete.
>
>
>Absolutely! That's why I try to keep people like you in the fold. It's the
>best reminder for me how far we have to go. If I can give you a little hope,
>you might stick with me for the ride.
I would like to share the same experience, but at this time I think Linux does
not want me in. Or if you prefer that it is not doing much effort to let me in.
>Besides, the ride is more fun when you've got good people to enjoy it with.
I think that there are excellent technicians in the Linux world. It's just that
it seems that there are not enough of them able to understand the needs of
normal people.
There are lessons to learn from Microsoft. I hope a few leaders will emerge and
convince them to let everybody in because as you said that's more fun.
Christophe
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.