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Subject: Re: Repetitions: The Rules

Author: Richard Pijl

Date: 15:41:04 07/12/02

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On July 12, 2002 at 18:23:47, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On July 12, 2002 at 17:15:13, Sune Fischer wrote:
>
>>On July 12, 2002 at 16:38:20, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On July 12, 2002 at 11:52:13, Dan Wulff wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> I play white, you play black. The game goes: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 Ng8 3. Nf3 Nf6
>>>>>>4. Ng1 Ng8 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Ng1 Ng8 7. Nf3 Nf6 ... It's perfectly legal because 3rd
>>>>>>repetition must be claimed by the players. In this game, either you or me can
>>>>>>claim draw by third repetition whenever we want, with or without making a move,
>>>>>>because there have been some positions (4 in this case) repeated 3 or more
>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>  I'm 100% sure about this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>You're right. Either something changed in the rules over time or my memory is
>>>>>failing me ;-). From the FIDE rules:
>>>>>
>>>>>'9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when
>>>>>the same position, for at least the third time (no necessarily by sequential
>>>>>repetition of moves)
>>>>>a) is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and
>>>>>declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
>>>>>b) has just appeard, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
>>>>>
>>>>>Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the
>>>>>move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the
>>>>>possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.
>>>>>Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant
>>>>>can no longer be captured or if the right to castle has been changed temporarily
>>>>>or permanently.'
>>>>
>>>>You are wrong........ Read the above again: "is about to appear" or "has just
>>>>appeared". This implies that you CANNOT claim the draw if you play on from the
>>>>3rd repetition, and for example claim a draw ten moves later.
>>>>
>>>>Greetings
>>>>
>>>>Dan Wulff
>>>>(The Gandalf Team)
>>>
>>>
>>>This is correct.  You can claim it before you move if the position has been
>>>repeated 3 times.  You can claim it after you move if the move causes the
>>>position to be repeated for the third time.
>>
>>No, you have to claim it _before_ you make the move, because only the person _in
>>the move_ can claim it. If it is you who repeates the second time, then it is
>>your opponent who can claim the draw, you had your chance before you made your
>>move.
>>
>>-S.
>
>In my old rule book, the definition of "when is your move completed?" was
>quite clear.  You can do either of the following to claim a repetition:
>
>1.  You can claim that the position on the board before you move is a
>three-fold repetition, that you have been in this same position three
>times in the past.  You can make the claim, stop the clock and ask the
>TD to verify your claim.
>
>2.  You can say "I claim a draw by three-fold repetition after I make the
>move XXX."  You do _not_ make the move, you do stop the clock and call the
>TD over to verify the claim.
>
>IE in either case you really don't make a move on the board, you simply
>express your intention to do so in the second case and then call the TD to
>comfirm the claim.
>
>Once you make the move and hit the clock, your opportunity to claim the
>draw is _gone_.  It is no longer your move.  Your opponent might choose to
>make a claim, if he can, or he might choose to make a move that makes it
>impossible for you to claim a repetition on your next move...  his choice.
>
>I don't know if the rules for claiming a draw have changed or not, but that
>is how they were expressed when I was playing actively and when I ran a lot
>of Scholastic-type events at the university chess club many years ago...
>
>However I am _certain_ that you can claim a three-fold repetition if either
>(a) the position before you move has occurred three times in the game;  or
>(b) the position _after_ the move you intend to play will have occurred three
>times in the game.  You can make a valid claim for _either_ circumstance, so
>long as you don't make a move and press the clock.  And I think that in the
>case of newer rules, you don't even need to press the clock to "end your move"
>which is why you don't actually make the move that would cause the repetition.
>You inform the TD of your intention to both make it _and_ claim a draw.
>
>
>
This is how I read the excerpt from the rules as well.
Richard.



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