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Subject: Re: Against computerchess fantasies about Elo numbers

Author: Rolf Tueschen

Date: 07:22:02 07/14/02

Go up one level in this thread


On July 14, 2002 at 09:47:55, Uri Blass wrote:

>On July 13, 2002 at 15:23:08, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>
>>On July 13, 2002 at 08:51:33, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On July 13, 2002 at 05:47:29, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 04:02:29, Jan Kiwitter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 00:20:02, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>>I think he is around IM level, if I recall correctly.  (2100 German rating)
>>>>>
>>>>>In this case your information is wrong. I myself have about 2150 German rating
>>>>>and I am far from playing at IM level.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards
>>>>>Jan
>>>>
>>>>Some simple truths:
>>>>
>>>>° Human players with FIDE (not US or Britain or some national rankings) Elo
>>>>level of about 2000 or 2100 are incredibly strong amateurs. They all know more
>>>>about chess than any commercial or amateur program.
>>>
>>>I do not believe in it.
>>>
>>>I had fide rating of slightly more than 2000 and I lost it.
>>>I believe that I am at the level of 2000-2100 fide rating(unfortunately a
>>>tournament when I did good results against players with fide rating was not
>>>included in the fide rating).
>>>
>>>My israeli rating that is eqvivalent to fide rating is again more than
>>>2000(2021).
>>>
>>>I expect chess programs to beat me with no opening book
>>>after 1.a3 a6 or 1.h4 h5.
>>>
>>>There are positions when humans with 2000-2100 can play better than the machines
>>>but there are also a lot of positions when machines play better than 2000-2100
>>>humans.
>>
>>I hope you didn't read me as if I had said that amateurs could beat commercial
>>progs at will.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>° The most important difference between such human amateurs and the progs is not
>>>>their chess but the huge opening books stuff. No amateur is able to know the
>>>>details of so many openings.
>>>
>>>The biggest difference is the speed of the machines.
>>>machines calculates too fast for humans.
>>>
>>>No amatuer is able to search even 1K nodes per second.
>>
>>Why should he need to do that? This is only important in sharp tactical
>>positions.
>
>This is important in almost every position and not only in sharp tactical
>positions.
>
>Humans can find better positional moves by searching deeper even in quiet
>positions.
>Chess programs can also find better moves by searching deeper.

All true but I must insist on that humans can see certain plans a tempo and the
rest is just the confirmation by some calculations. Machines are unable to do
this. You criticised Crafty's general forbiding any takes on g5/g4. Of course
this is premature. But this is my point. Either you tell them or they must
calculate. But certain position cannot be calculated to a good end.

>
>I believe that programs have no chance against GMs if you let them to
>change their mind only when they see a move that is at least 0.3 pawns better.

This surprises me. Thanks for the hint. I never read something about such
numbers. Is .3 correct or just an example? Here the next point. I hope you
believe me that GM if in real challenge would exactly exploit the machines in
such ideosyncrasies. But without incentive it's with no interest so far.

Rolf Tueschen

>
>Uri



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