Author: Chessfun
Date: 07:50:30 09/15/02
Go up one level in this thread
On September 15, 2002 at 10:24:26, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On September 15, 2002 at 08:55:57, Chessfun wrote: > >>On September 15, 2002 at 07:59:42, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >> >>>From the Macheide XP tuning games of Thorsten I found the following game. NB >>>that I did _not_ select the game. It was the first I played. Now I will take a >>>closer look. >>> >>>The game [read the article in Computerschachwelt]: >>> >>>Shredder 6 - XP Machëide x2cou_51 >>>40 Moves in 120 min; 20 Moves in 60 min auto232 match, 400mhz (3), 13.09.2002 >>> >>>1.d4 book 0s 1...Nf6 1:27m 2.c4 book 0s 2...e6 5s 3.Nc3 book 0s 3...Bb4 2s 4.e3 >>>book 0s 4...0-0 3s 5.Bd3 book 0s 5...d5 3s 6.cxd5 book 0s 6...exd5 2s 7.Nge2 >>>book 0s 7...Re8 2s 8.0-0 book 0s 8...Bd6 3s 9.f3 book 0s 9...c5 2s 10.Qe1 book >>>0s 10...Nc6 3s 11.Qh4 book 0s 11...Be7 4s 12.dxc5 -0.15/13 10:06m 12...Bxc5 >>>5:30m 13.Nd4 -0.15/13 0s 13...Bd7 3:37m (Ne5) 14.Nxd5 -0.03/13 9:32m 14...Nxd5 >>>43s 15.Qxh7+ -0.01/13 3:47m 15...Kf8 6s 16.Qh8+ -0.37/13 7:09m 16...Ke7 4s >>>17.Qxg7 -1.08/12 5:04m 17...Rg8 8:11m 18.Qh7 -1.64/12 0s 18...Nxd4 15:04m >>>19.exd4 -1.73/13 0s 19...Bxd4+ 2:25m 20.Kh1 -1.73/13 0s 20...Be6 5:47m 21.Re1 >>>-1.88/11 5:58m 21...Kd6 5s (Qb6) 22.Qe4 -1.70/11 6:51m 22...Qf6 4s 23.Rf1 >>>-3.51/9 12:55m 23...Rxg2 4:02m 24.Kxg2 -9.03/11 7:48m 24...Rg8+ 4s 0-1 >>> >>>Now my questions: >>> >>>1. Could someone tell me where exactly the books end? >> >>11...Be7 is the last book move. >> >> >>>2. Also could someone explain why Rebel played his book moves with different >>>times? >> >>Autoplayer lag, in DOS it happens. >> >> >>>3. As a general question, does someone know if besides book cooking there can be >>>operator or tester tuning and if yes please with an example? >> >> >>Naturally it's possible in theory to play through a few lines and see how any >>program would proceed. Note; I am not saying in this case that happened. >> >> >>>4. In my eyes we have a book cooking in the example above. Shredder ends with >>>Qh4, is that right? >> >>Yes Qh4 is last book move. >> >> >>>5. The cook is Be7, right? >> >> >>Be7 is the last Rebel book move. It's also a book move for many other programs. >>Simply look at Fritz 7.ctg and look at blacks score with this move. >> >> >>>6. Look at the position after 13...Bd7. Could I give you this position to be >>>examined with your favorite progs? Who plays Nxd5? I already checked that FRITZ >> >>How long did you check with Fritz for? and what version? Takes Fritz 7 a fair >>time to get off Nxd5 on my PC AMD @1400 mhz. >> >>r2qr1k1/pp1b1ppp/2n2n2/2bp4/3N3Q/2NBPP2/PP4PP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Fritz 7: >> >>14.Nxd5 >> = (0.19) Depth: 8/26 00:00:00 299kN >>14.Nxd5-- >> = (-0.09) Depth: 9/29 00:00:00 548kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Nxc6+ Bxc6 19.Qh6 >> = (-0.19) Depth: 9/29 00:00:01 791kN >>14.Rd1! >> = (0.00) Depth: 9/33 00:00:06 4138kN >>14.Rd1 h6 15.Kh1 Nxd4 16.exd4 Bd6 17.Nb5 Bb8 >> = (-0.12) Depth: 9/33 00:00:07 5039kN >>14.Rd1 h6 15.Na4 Be7 16.Nf5 Ne5 17.Nxe7+ Qxe7 18.Nc3 Nxd3 19.Rxd3 Qe5 >> = (-0.19) Depth: 10/28 00:00:15 10129kN >>14.Rd1 h6 15.Kh1 Rc8 16.Nf5 Ne5 17.Bc2 Nc4 18.Nxd5 Nxd5 >> = (-0.22) Depth: 11/30 00:00:36 24384kN >>14.Nxd5! >> = (-0.19) Depth: 11/30 00:00:38 25868kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Qh7 Kf8 19.Qh6+ Ke8 20.Nxc6 >>Bxc6 >> = (-0.06) Depth: 11/32 00:00:39 27029kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Qh7 Qb6 19.Bc4 Bxd4 20.Bxd5 >> = (-0.09) Depth: 12/34 00:00:55 37871kN >>14.Nxd5-- >> ³ (-0.37) Depth: 13/40 00:01:42 69562kN >>14.Nxd5 >> ³ (-0.37) Depth: 13/40 00:01:54 78003kN >>14.a3! >> ³ (-0.34) Depth: 13/40 00:02:19 95976kN >> >>(, MyTown 15.09.2002) > > >Yes, you are right, here is what I get so far, analysis still running: > >Shredder 6 - XP Machëide x2cou_51 >[D] r2qr1k1/pp1b1ppp/2n2n2/2bp4/3N3Q/2NBPP2/PP4PP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Fritz 7: > >14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 > ² (0.47) Depth: 7/21 00:00:00 82kN >14.Nxd5-- > = (0.19) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 145kN >14.Nxd5 > = (0.19) Depth: 8/24 00:00:01 252kN >14.Nxd5-- > = (-0.09) Depth: 9/29 00:00:04 509kN >14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Nxc6+ Bxc6 19.Qh6 > = (-0.19) Depth: 9/29 00:00:04 750kN >14.Rd1 > = (0.00) Depth: 9/33 00:00:26 5473kN >14.Rd1 h6 15.Na4 Be7 16.Nf5 Ne5 17.Nxe7+ Qxe7 18.Nc3 Nxd3 > = (-0.19) Depth: 10/29 00:00:43 9578kN >14.Rd1 h6 15.Nce2 Ne5 16.Bc2 Qb6 17.b3 Rac8 > = (-0.19) Depth: 11/31 00:02:09 29771kN >14.Rd1 h6 15.Nce2 Ne5 16.b3 Nxd3 17.Rxd3 Qb6 18.Nf4 Rac8 19.Bb2 > = (-0.22) Depth: 12/33 00:04:00 56324kN >14.Nxd5 > = (-0.19) Depth: 12/35 00:04:20 60874kN >14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 > = (-0.09) Depth: 12/36 00:04:42 66542kN >14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Qh7 Qb6 19.Qe4+ > = (-0.22) Depth: 13/37 00:07:20 106087kN >14.Nxd5-- > ³ (-0.50) Depth: 14/40 00:18:34 274357kN >14.Nxd5 > ³ (-0.50) Depth: 14/40 00:22:55 342102kN >14.Rf2 > ³ (-0.47) Depth: 14/40 00:40:14 601615kN >14.Rd1 > ³ (-0.44) Depth: 14/40 00:51:18 766626kN > >(P 500, 16 MB hash only, engine in CB8, MyTown 15.09.2002) > >It's interesting that a different Hash and a different update (?) brings such >differences. Also some changes for R etc. could be important. > > > > > >> >> >>Shredder 6 also plays Nxd5 as it did in the game. >> >>r2qr1k1/pp1b1ppp/2n2n2/2bp4/3N3Q/2NBPP2/PP4PP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Shredder 6: >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Qb6 18.Qg5+ Nf6 19.Nf5+ Bxf5 >>20.Qxf5 >> ± (1.22) Depth: 7/14 00:00:00 202kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Qb6 18.Qg5+ Nf6 19.Nf5+ Bxf5 >>20.Qxf5 Bxe3+ 21.Bxe3 Qxe3+ 22.Kh1 >> ± (0.97) Depth: 8/16 00:00:01 279kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Qb6 18.Re1 Ncb4 19.Be4 Qf6 >>20.Qxf6+ Kxf6 >> ± (0.77) Depth: 8/16 00:00:01 381kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Qb6 18.Qg5+ Nf6 19.Nxc6+ bxc6 >>20.Rd1 >> ± (1.02) Depth: 9/18 00:00:02 604kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Qb6 18.Qg5+ Nf6 19.Nxc6+ Qxc6 >>20.Be4 Qc7 21.Bxb7 >> ± (1.38) Depth: 9/18 00:00:03 869kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Nf6 18.Bc4 Nxd4 19.Qxf7+ Kd6 >>20.Kh1 Rf8 21.exd4 Rxf7 22.Bxf7 >> ± (1.13) Depth: 10/20 00:00:04 1136kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Nf6 18.Nb3 Bd6 19.Bd2 >> ± (1.05) Depth: 10/20 00:00:06 1525kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Nxc6+ Bxc6 19.Qe5+ Kf8 >>20.Bd2 Qb6 21.Kh1 Nxe3 22.Bxe3 Bxe3 >> ± (0.80) Depth: 11/22 00:00:09 2421kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Nxc6+ Bxc6 19.Qe5+ Kf8 >>20.Bd2 Qb6 21.Be4 Nxe3 >> ² (0.30) Depth: 11/22 00:00:11 3026kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Qh6 Nxd4 19.exd4 Bxd4+ >>20.Kh1 Qb6 21.Re1+ Kd8 22.Qh5 Be6 >> ² (0.28) Depth: 11/22 00:00:16 4178kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Qh6 Nxd4 19.exd4 Bxd4+ >>20.Kh1 Qb6 21.Re1+ Be6 22.Bg5+ Nf6 23.Rab1 Rae8 >> = (0.18) Depth: 12/24 00:00:36 9454kN >>14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qxg7 Rg8 18.Qh6 Nxd4 19.exd4 Bxd4+ >>20.Kh1 Qb6 21.Re1+ Be6 22.Bf5 Rae8 23.Bg5+ Bf6 >> = (-0.03) Depth: 13/26 00:01:27 22419kN >> >>Note in the game Shredder went to depth 13 in 9:32 but the PC used was much >>slower. > >Yes, ok. But please note that I did not assume that the moves of Shredder were a >fake. I have a totally different hypothesis. Among others. > >Here comes. > >I. My question is what someone could do by tuning the engine. How he could find >the idea. What I assume for this single game is that the tuning here either was >unimportant because the game is lost after Nxd5 or the tuning was perfected to >'win' the won game for sure. Could you or someone explain how the usual tuning >happened? > >II. My opinion is that such a game where Shredder plays into a lost game out of >the opening does not prove anything about a successful tuning of Rebel. > >III. Why there is no comparison in the presentation? Say Rebel (normal) plays >suchand Macheide 51 plays such? THen it would be much easier to follow the >process. > >IV. My hypothesis therefore: You can't prove the successful tuning with a deadly >lost game by the opposing prog(here Shredder). > >V. Interesting note: therefore I conclude from IV. that a sort of statistics is >unnecessary here. Here we must analyse the single games. Simply adding the >results and making conclusions is wrong. It's interesting that Thorsten, who is >always talking about his ability to make conclusions from a single game does not >talk about his reflections of such a game here but he is presenting a series of >games to let the numbers of performance speak. BTW Ed does it with his control >games in the same wrong manner. > >VI. Hypothesis: You should not add up game results of "apples" games and "beans" >games. Therefore it is important to examine the games prior any counting >processes. > > > > >> >> >>>7 does not play Nxd5. It's clear that Black gets a tempo with Rg8 and then can >>>take on d4. >> >> >>Ok agreed but Shredder plays Nxd5 so what would you have him do? > >You give a good question, but here it wasn't Shredder under the microscope but >the process of tuning for Rebel... > > >> >> >>>7. Could someone explain how K-safety could be involved in this special game? >>>Black takes he risk of a wandering K to d6 and White is "safe" behind his pawns. >>>Why Shredder, the multi-time Wch cannot see that the open g-file brings storm >>>for his K? >> >> >>Shredder plays the moves shown, it's a book line in which it ends playing a poor >>move on a slow PC. > >All ok. I asked because I wanted to know if such a play is a well known >(insider!) weakness. Conclusion then: such a game has no meaning at all in the >presentation of the results of a tuning process. > >Thanks for the many data. For the first time I understood how to save the >complete analysis simply by pushing it into the clipboard. Could you comment on >the specific details of my data? I don't think I see data, I see questions. Questions I could answer but since my answers are not the answers of the person in question, it's easier to leave that to Thorsten. Sarah.
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