Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:50:41 10/09/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 09, 2002 at 18:47:46, Marc van Hal wrote: >On October 09, 2002 at 18:32:11, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 09, 2002 at 15:06:28, martin fierz wrote: >> >>>On October 09, 2002 at 14:26:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On October 09, 2002 at 12:53:50, Graham Laight wrote: >>>> >>>>>Nobody who is familiar with the prevailing computer chess scene can deny that >>>>>Alexander is a genius at preparing opening books for computer v computer games. >>>>> >>>>>Against Kramnik, however, one must question his judgement. >>>> >>>>This is the wrong approach to this. How on earth could Alex be prepared to try >>>>to >>>>out-book Kramnik? Kramnik is one of the best in the world. Alex is good vs >>>>computers >>>>as he is probably technically better than the programs, even if he is not >>>>tactically their equal. >>>> >>>>But to expect him to have any prayer at all in trying to out-book Kramnik is a >>>>futile >>>>wish, IMHO... >>> >>>so why on earth didnt they get some help from a strong player? DBs openings were >>>prepared by joel benjamin IIRC, and even though he is of course weaker than >>>kasparov he at least had some idea how to prepare against this kind of >>>opposition. >> >>You are asking the wrong person. :) When I played a GM match a couple of times >>on ICC, >>I had _no_ problem getting another GM to help me with opening suggestions. They >>_love_ to >>see their competition get blasted. :) >> >> >>> >>>>>In each game, the queens have come off early. Against a human, that can't be >>>>>right. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>It could, if Fritz knew more about endings. You don't cover up a hole by >>>>avoiding it if you >>>>can, you fill it in so that it doesn't bother you any more... >>>> >>>>> >>>>>What is needed is to get to an open position with the queens still on the board. >>>> >>>>Or to learn how to play positions where the queens are gone. Then there is no >>>>advantage in the human trying to remove them. >>> >>>so what's your take on this? do you think any other program would look better >>>than fritz in these endgames? >>> >>>aloha >>> martin >>> >> >>From what I have seen, Rebel would be one that comes to mind. Crafty may (or >>may not) >>do better, but its advantage would be that it _has_ been developed in the GM >>environment, >>where I have been "doing battle" with them for several years and have specific >>code to avoid >>certain well-known strategies that they like to employ against computers. No >>idea if it would >>do better or worse however, but it would definitely do "different"... I suspect >>Rebel would >>do clearly better, however. But that is from watching it play lots of games. >>Other programs >>have less GM experience so I am not sure how they would fare... >> >> >>I think your right Rebel and maybe crafty are more alround engines >engines who know how to play a positional >But also know how to play a tactical game I have thought more about this, and I would make the following controversial statement (the reasons will eliminate the controversy however): Crafty _would_ do better than Fritz in this match. Not that I would expect it to win, but it _would_ do better. Now for the "why?" 1. If we stick crafty in _right now_ all the weaknesses he has found in Fritz are useless. Crafty evaluates endgames differently (and better in many but not all cases). So all his pre-match preparations would go right down the toilet, and the onus would be on him to find Crafty's (many) weaknesses, OTB in games that count. Not that easy. One mistake is all he has to make to lose a game, and probing for unknown weaknesses would not be easy with only eight games to play, and with the program possibly "changing personalities" between rounds. 2. If Crafty had started this match it would have done better. Because I would _not_ have agreed to the silly rule about "he gets a copy of the program beforehand and no changes can be made to the program after that unless he gets the new version far enough in advance to test it thoroughly." I have no doubt Kramnik would still win. Perhaps he would even win every game. But the games would _not_ be boring endgame losses, the endgames would have inbalances that would make them quite interesting, as would the middlegame. I think _the_ problem with this match is the pre-match preparation rule, which is nothing short of completely ridiculous. >Fritz Always had the advantage of being very tactical >But the back draw is that it is not as good in positonal games. >Frans tried manny things to solve this problem >But it is still is there >Nevertheless I think You can't fight against somebody who know ahead what is >comming. That is _the_ point, IMHO. The basic flaw with _all_ computer chess programs is that they are static entities. They don't change on their own. If you play me and you beat me using the same idea over and over, I will adapt and it won't continue to happen very long. Not so with a computer, and that is a _huge_ problem that most are overlooking... >If at least one thing does help for Fritz is increasing the selectivety. >You have a super computer now use it wisely. > >Marc Maybe. The 8-way systems are _not_ that impressive, IMHO. They have a _huge_ memory bottleneck. The quads solve this with 4-way interleaving. The 8-way boxes _still_ use 4-way interleaving, which means you simply have twice as many processors fighting over the same memory bandwidth.... result == starvation. > > > >> >>> >>>>>Given that nothing else in Fritz can be modified except the opening book, it >>>>>really is down to Alex Kure now to provide Vladimir with some sort of >>>>>opposition. >>>>>' >>>> >>>>And that is a hopeless assignment for him... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-g >>>>> >>>>>On October 09, 2002 at 11:01:03, Chessfun wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=542 >>>>>> >>>>>>"The Fritz team has the consolation of having outplayed Kramnik in the opening >>>>>>stages with the Scotch Opening that is favored by former world champion Garry >>>>>>Kasparov. Kramnik must have prepared extensively for the Scotch before his 2000 >>>>>>title match with Kasparov, but Fritz reached a very comfortable position. The >>>>>>problem was that like the eunuch who walked into the harem Fritz had no idea >>>>>>what to do when he got there" >>>>>> >>>>>>Sarah.
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