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Subject: Re: DeepBlue && SingularExtensions && !Nullmoving

Author: Joachim Rang

Date: 05:12:00 10/16/02

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On October 16, 2002 at 07:06:30, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On October 16, 2002 at 06:52:17, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>
>>On October 16, 2002 at 06:39:08, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On October 16, 2002 at 06:37:40, Thorsten Czub wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 16, 2002 at 06:33:39, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>It uses (I wouldn't say wastes) quite a bit of resources,
>>>>>but there is also a gain. I find that it is almost perfectly
>>>>>breaking even for me. I search less deep, but I am seeing
>>>>>some deep tactics and avoid getting into some dangerous
>>>>>situations.
>>>>
>>>>really ?!
>>>>
>>>>interesting.
>>>>
>>>>i gave up using SEX in rebel XP....
>>>
>>>the problem of SE shows when search depths get big.
>>>GCP is basically testing at bullet levels and then you don't
>>>get search depths of 12+ ply soon.
>>
>>I don't notice them worsening things at longer time controls
>>either, but then again, I've never been a very deep searcher,
>>though things are changing.
>>
>>I also understand that you do the full Hsu thing, so your
>>overhead must be a lot bigger.
>
>I do way more. I can do way more. The nonsense lines get
>pruned by nullmove. In Hsu's creations they were not.
>
>>If I find that with increasing hardware speed/slower timecontrols
>>it does start getting worse, I will uncheck the 'singular extensions'
>>checkbox and problem solved :)
>>
>>>In DIEP the price of SE is basically getting too big at those depths.
>>
>>I gather from this you won't be using them this weekend? Or is
>>90m SD also 'bullet'?
>
>I am talking about the crucial 12 ply search depth for DIEP.
>I will be getting about 10-12, so the weakest spot is those 10 ply
>searches. There i will be using SE.
>
>My overhead at 10 ply is about half a ply for SE. But at 12 ply
>it can be easily 2 ply. Doesn't need to be so. Nullmove sometimes powerful
>prunes away the stuff in quiet positions.
>
>It's the tactical positions where sometimes even a 11 ply search depth
>has plies overhead. SE is a very stupid extension in fact. I am sure
>in the far future it's too stupid to let your b.f. worsen with it.
>
>It makes my b.f. simply a lot worse. With 3 ply reduction however
>the worsening starts not directly. Because in the root i don't do 'em
>and the last 3 ply i don't do them. So i save 4 ply.
>
>It's trivial that at 12 ply you feel it for 8 ply and at 10 ply you
>'just' feel it for 6 ply.
>
>In other words it's % from 10 ply is 60% of search depth. At 12 ply it's 75%
>of total search depth.
>
>That triggers more.
>
>Suppose in a few years we all get 15 ply. For me within 1 year perhaps
>(if i get some processors from NWO to use). I can't afford SE then simply.
>
>DB never was tested very well, let's be realistic here. Otherwise he
>might have kicked it out too and would have gotten more nodes a second
>then.
>

So your testings showed, that SE create more overhead at deeper depth? What does
that cause? Why is the overhead at depth 10 about half a ply and at depth 12
two?

regards

Jochim



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