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Subject: Re: Amir Ban will have his chance to prove that DB was NOT better

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 07:27:12 11/15/02

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On November 15, 2002 at 01:02:52, Uri Blass wrote:

>On November 14, 2002 at 19:57:02, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 14, 2002 at 18:07:40, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On November 14, 2002 at 17:20:45, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 12:57:19, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 11:26:37, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 03:33:48, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On November 13, 2002 at 16:52:35, David Hanley wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If you play the current best program on current hardware against that
>>>>>>>>>combination, it's also going to blow it over.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Against the kasparov, etc?  Well, well see.  But i expect that it won't >convince either camp.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No. DB of then against the top of now. I suspect DB would get spanked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>DB of then against the programs of then is another matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>GCP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll change the metaphor a bit, but if by "spanked" you mean that DB's
>>>>>>fist would get beat to a bloody pulp by the faces of today's micros" then
>>>>>>I might agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But _only_ in that metaphorical context.
>>>>>
>>>>>If it's only about metaphors, I think that computer chess is also a topic for
>>>>>me. I have the concrete question if you could give us a comparison from the old
>>>>>days. How would you compare the difference in strength between the actual
>>>>>commercials and DB2 in giving the names of ancient programs? Could we say, CRAY
>>>>>BLITZ against FRITZ 2 or what would you prefer?
>>>>>
>>>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>>>I
>>>>
>>>>I am not sure what you are asking.  I don't personally have a lot of experience
>>>>with older
>>>>commercials.  The only experiment I ever ran caused a lot of ruckus in r.g.c
>>>>(prior to the
>>>>days of r.g.c.c) when I ran several games between a single-cpu Cray Blitz vs
>>>>Chess Genius
>>>>2 on the fastest PC of that day, which I think was a 486/66 or something
>>>>similar.  It ended
>>>>like the DB single chip vs the micros ended, except that I _did_ post the games,
>>>>without
>>>>posting the name of the opponent.  But someone (Chris Whittington I think)
>>>>figured it out
>>>>because it was a king safety debacle for the micro.
>>>>
>>>>All I can say about DB2 vs the micros is that it is about 200x faster.  That's
>>>>more than enough.
>>>>Null-move or not.  IE I wouldn't want to play a match Crafty vs
>>>>Crafty/no-null/200x faster,
>>>>myself, and that would not be a completely fair test since I know that DB did
>>>>some things in
>>>>their eval that I am not doing at present...
>>>
>>>1.Deeper blue was not 200 times faster than Crafty of today.
>>>
>>>Hsu said in reply to the question about the number of nodes that
>>>the 200M nodes were 200M total nodes and not effective nodes.
>>
>>So?  My 1M nodes is not "effective nodes" either.  Nor is the NPS for any "deep"
>>program...  So 200x is right in the ballpark.
>
>For Deep blue the difference was clearly bigger because all of their
>problems(not using hash tables in the hardware and loss of speed from other
>factors).
>
>Uri


Not necessarily.  Deep Junior doesn't hash in the last ply or two plus not in
the q-search.  Do you think he does that because it is less efficient?  Or
because it works _better_?




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