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Subject: Re: Amir Ban will have his chance to prove that DB was NOT better

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 07:41:55 11/15/02

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On November 15, 2002 at 10:27:12, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On November 15, 2002 at 01:02:52, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On November 14, 2002 at 19:57:02, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 14, 2002 at 18:07:40, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 17:20:45, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 12:57:19, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 11:26:37, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On November 14, 2002 at 03:33:48, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On November 13, 2002 at 16:52:35, David Hanley wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>If you play the current best program on current hardware against that
>>>>>>>>>>combination, it's also going to blow it over.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Against the kasparov, etc?  Well, well see.  But i expect that it won't >convince either camp.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No. DB of then against the top of now. I suspect DB would get spanked.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>DB of then against the programs of then is another matter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>GCP
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'll change the metaphor a bit, but if by "spanked" you mean that DB's
>>>>>>>fist would get beat to a bloody pulp by the faces of today's micros" then
>>>>>>>I might agree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But _only_ in that metaphorical context.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If it's only about metaphors, I think that computer chess is also a topic for
>>>>>>me. I have the concrete question if you could give us a comparison from the old
>>>>>>days. How would you compare the difference in strength between the actual
>>>>>>commercials and DB2 in giving the names of ancient programs? Could we say, CRAY
>>>>>>BLITZ against FRITZ 2 or what would you prefer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>>>>I
>>>>>
>>>>>I am not sure what you are asking.  I don't personally have a lot of experience
>>>>>with older
>>>>>commercials.  The only experiment I ever ran caused a lot of ruckus in r.g.c
>>>>>(prior to the
>>>>>days of r.g.c.c) when I ran several games between a single-cpu Cray Blitz vs
>>>>>Chess Genius
>>>>>2 on the fastest PC of that day, which I think was a 486/66 or something
>>>>>similar.  It ended
>>>>>like the DB single chip vs the micros ended, except that I _did_ post the games,
>>>>>without
>>>>>posting the name of the opponent.  But someone (Chris Whittington I think)
>>>>>figured it out
>>>>>because it was a king safety debacle for the micro.
>>>>>
>>>>>All I can say about DB2 vs the micros is that it is about 200x faster.  That's
>>>>>more than enough.
>>>>>Null-move or not.  IE I wouldn't want to play a match Crafty vs
>>>>>Crafty/no-null/200x faster,
>>>>>myself, and that would not be a completely fair test since I know that DB did
>>>>>some things in
>>>>>their eval that I am not doing at present...
>>>>
>>>>1.Deeper blue was not 200 times faster than Crafty of today.
>>>>
>>>>Hsu said in reply to the question about the number of nodes that
>>>>the 200M nodes were 200M total nodes and not effective nodes.
>>>
>>>So?  My 1M nodes is not "effective nodes" either.  Nor is the NPS for any "deep"
>>>program...  So 200x is right in the ballpark.
>>
>>For Deep blue the difference was clearly bigger because all of their
>>problems(not using hash tables in the hardware and loss of speed from other
>>factors).
>>
>>Uri
>
>
>Not necessarily.  Deep Junior doesn't hash in the last ply or two plus not in
>the q-search.  Do you think he does that because it is less efficient?  Or
>because it works _better_?

Deep Junior use different algorithm

I know that they did not hash and did not use killer moves in the hardware
because they had not time and not because it worked better.

Uri



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