Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Some questions about Verified Null-Move Pruning

Author: Tony Werten

Date: 23:59:34 11/21/02

Go up one level in this thread


On November 22, 2002 at 02:44:52, Tony Werten wrote:

>On November 21, 2002 at 17:01:11, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>
>>On November 21, 2002 at 16:55:04, Tony Werten wrote:
>>
>>>On November 21, 2002 at 16:19:17, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 21, 2002 at 16:05:45, Tony Werten wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 21, 2002 at 13:52:33, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On November 21, 2002 at 13:05:28, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On November 21, 2002 at 09:16:09, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On November 21, 2002 at 08:34:36, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>1)I do not find in the pseudo code in figure 3 undo null move.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I assume that it should be before if value>=beta and after value=-search(...)
>>>>>>>>>Am I right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That is why it is called *pseudo*-code :-)
>>>>>>>>You have to fill in the obvious parts by yourself...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>2)What is the value of the research for tactical strength?
>>>>>>>>>Should it help significantly relative to searching to reduced depth when
>>>>>>>>>value>=beta without research (even when we get value that is less than beta).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I didn't understand the question. Dp you mean doing a shallow search even when
>>>>>>>>we don't have a fail-high report?!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I meant to ask what is the tactical value of the research(You suggested people
>>>>>>>to start with doing it without the research first and only after it works to do
>>>>>>>it with the research)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The re-search is needed only in zugzwang positions. Such zugzwang positions
>>>>>>occur very rarely in midgames; so you can forgo the zugzwang detection re-search
>>>>>>and still benefit all the improved tactical performance.
>>>>>
>>>>>I was quite surprised to see them from the starting position at a rate of 5 per
>>>>>second. Not impressive, XiniX searches 400 Kn/s there, but still surprising.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The rate of what, was 5 per second?
>>>
>>>"Zugzwang positions" or rather, positions where nullmove would have given a
>>>cutoff but that after reducing depth and searching gave a score < beta.
>>>
>>
>>You mean you got an average of 5 zugzwang indications per second in middle
>>game?!!! Then your program has instabilities which cause a huge number of
>>needless re-searches due to false zugzwang alarm. Turn off your zugzwang
>>detection at once!
>
>I'm quite interested in finding out what is happening so I'll leave it in for a
>while. I think it has something to do with tempo. XiniX doesn't use futility
>pruning so I'm quite curious to know if programs that do, have a bigger false
>zugzwang count.

Think I found it. Your algoritm doesn't seem to work correctly with threat
detection, causing instabilities. Maybe your testprogram didn't use it ?

BTW assuming my program has searchinstabilities instead of realising that you
used a woodcounter that may be too simple to reflect the impact on the
architecture of a real chessprogram isn't a nice thing to do.


>
>Tony
>
>>
>>
>>>Tony
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Tony
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uri



This page took 0.01 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.