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Subject: Re: Nullmove crap

Author: Russell Reagan

Date: 20:48:28 12/18/02

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On December 18, 2002 at 22:55:56, Bruce Moreland wrote:

>Let's say that your current depth is 5.  You are going to make each of your
>moves, and then give black a 4-ply response.

Here I wonder if this is a realistic problem. How often are you going to be in a
situation where you only have time for a 5 ply search? It seems like most
programs are into double digit plies in the first handful of seconds. At higher
search depths is this still a non-trivial problem?

>Some programs cannot detect non-capturing mates at the horizon, so if this
>program is like that, black could have a mate in one, and it would not be
>detected.

Is this a mate in one from the root position, or in a position at some point in
the null-move search? I'm a little confused here, because it doesn't seem
logical that you could miss a mate in one in a 5-ply search. In the reduced
search, black gets a move, and white gets a response. If black has a mate in
one, it will mate on its move, one ply before the search was to end, and it will
be detected.

>So the knife stops inches from white's heart, white thinks he is fine, and this
>whole line is discarded as "awesome for white".

Hah! That's a nice way to put it. :)

>Do you understand?  If you don't, I will try again, because this is important.

Yes it makes sense mostly. I see how an engine could miss things because of
null-move, but as seen above, I'm not sure I understand exactly how bad the
problem is. A 5-ply search missing a mate in one sounds like a bad problem to
me, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not (see above). If this
problem holds with increased depth, it could really cause problems. IE white
moves into a mate in nine even though it did a 13-ply search. Not good.

>I think it's the single worst problem that you'll
>have if you use traditional null move search with R=2.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing that this is "the single worst problem
you'll have if you use traditional null move search with R=2"? Do you mean,
"This is as bad as it gets! Wonderful!"? Or do you mean, "This is a horrible
problem that's hard to fix. Argh!"?

Russell



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