Author: Dieter Buerssner
Date: 15:28:05 01/06/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 06, 2003 at 03:20:32, Terry McCracken wrote:
I pretty much agree with the comments of Pat.
>This position arose in a casual game tonight. I played the "Human" Rd7+ to
>quickly reduce it to a simple winning King & Pawn Ending.
>
>Computers like to keep it more complex with Rf6!?
Mine, too - yes
>How long will it take, if ever, for a top programme to find and play the "Human"
>Rd7+, winning with simplicity?
>
>How much effort is put foward by the programmers, to tell the computer,
>"Reduce & Simplify"?
For me, it is not so easy. If one really could trust the pawn endgame evaluation
function, it would be no problem. But I think, in general some analysis (=search
depth) is needed. Actually Yace is slightly forced to simplyfy, and also tries
to look closer at the pawn endgame. In this specific case, Rf6 for a long time
just is a little bit ahead of Rd7+, so it doesn't help. Ed Schröder once
mentioned here, that Rebel gives an additional bonus for a seemingly winning
pawn endgame. With this trick, Rd7+ is found in no time. But it also has
disadvantages - perhaps not so much in practical games.
>8/p1r1k2p/2PR2p1/6P1/8/8/P4P1P/6K1 w
After 12 minutes, finally Rd7+ is choosen.
18004216 18.686 1.85 15. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
h4 Kc5 6. a4 Kb4 7. h5 gxh5 8. Rh6 {80}
27161755 28.331 1.90 16t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
h4 Rc7 6. Ke4 Re7+ 7. Kd5 Re2 8. a3 {HT} {160}
30455741 31.650 1.90 16. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
h4 Rc7 6. Ke4 Re7+ 7. Kd5 Re2 8. a3 {HT} {160}
51283841 53.759 1.93 17t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
h4 Rc7 6. h5 gxh5 7. f5 a6 8. Rh6 {80}
53681012 56.289 1.93 17. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
h4 Rc7 6. h5 gxh5 7. f5 a6 8. Rh6 {80}
112074154 1:58.7 2.05 18t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Re6 Rf7 3. Kg2 {HT}
116677256 2:03.6 2.05 18. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Re6 Rf7 3. Kg2
243482328 4:19.7 2.04 19t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Kg2 Re7 3. f4 Re2+H 4. Kg3H Ke7H
5. f5H gxf5H 6. Rxf5H Rxa2H 7. Rd5H Ke6H 8.
Rd7H {HT} {80}
256365403 4:33.4 2.04 19. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Kg2 Re7 3. f4 Re2+ 4. Kg3 Ke7 5.
f5 gxf5 6. Rxf5 Rxa2 7. Rd5 Ke6 8. Rd7 {HT} {80}
645780926 11:39.8 2.12 20t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7H 4. h4H a5H 5.
f5H gxf5H 6. Rxf5H Re4H 7. Rxa5H Rxh4H 8. a4H
{HT} {160}
678125210 12:15.1 2.13 20t+ 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. f4 a6
5. h4 a5 6. a4H Kd6H 7. Kh3H Kc6H 8. f5H Kd6H
9. f6H Kd7H 10. h5H Ke6H {HT} {80}
692694548 12:30.6 2.26 20t 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kf7 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4 Kd6 9. f5
gxf5+ 10. Kxf5 Ke7 {HT} {80}
724061159 13:05.8 2.26 20. 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kf7 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4 Kd6 9. f5
gxf5+ 10. Kxf5 Ke7 11. Ke4H Kf7H 12. Kf4H Ke7H
{HT} {80}
772805567 14:01.9 2.38 21t 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kd6 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4H Kd6H 9.
f5H gxf5+H 10. Kxf5H Kc6H {80}
878453817 15:59.7 2.38 21. 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kd6 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4 Kd6 9. f5
gxf5+ 10. Kxf5 Kc6 {80}
949272646 17:18.8 2.61 22t 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kd8 3. Kg2 Kxd7 4. f4H
Ke7H 5. Kg3H Kd6H 6. Kf3H Ke7H 7. Ke3H Kd7H 8.
f5H gxf5H 9. Kf4H Ke6H 10. h4H a6H 11. a3H Ke7H
12. Kxf5H h6H {HT} {80}
989481947 18:02.7 2.61 22. 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kd8 3. Kg2 Kxd7 4. f4 Ke7
5. Kg3 Kd6 6. Kf3 Ke7 7. Ke3 Kd7 8. f5 gxf5 9.
Kf4 Ke6 10. h4 a6 11. a3 Ke7 12. Kxf5 h6 {HT}
{80}
Your point reminds me of a postion Steffen Jakob showed here once:
[D] 6k1/2pq4/5Q2/p2PPP2/1p1P4/8/P6P/7K w - - am Qe6;
Here the trade to the pawn endgame loses.
Regards,
Dieter
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.