Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 17:02:13 01/06/03
Go up one level in this thread
Thanks to all who have replied.
I just tested this position with Rebel XP DOS and it found on my meager
hardware, PIII 500, Rd7+! after 4min. 16 sec.
Good Work Ed!
Terry
On January 06, 2003 at 18:28:05, Dieter Buerssner wrote:
>On January 06, 2003 at 03:20:32, Terry McCracken wrote:
>
>I pretty much agree with the comments of Pat.
>
>>This position arose in a casual game tonight. I played the "Human" Rd7+ to
>>quickly reduce it to a simple winning King & Pawn Ending.
>>
>>Computers like to keep it more complex with Rf6!?
>
>Mine, too - yes
>
>>How long will it take, if ever, for a top programme to find and play the "Human"
>>Rd7+, winning with simplicity?
>>
>>How much effort is put foward by the programmers, to tell the computer,
>>"Reduce & Simplify"?
>
>For me, it is not so easy. If one really could trust the pawn endgame evaluation
>function, it would be no problem. But I think, in general some analysis (=search
>depth) is needed. Actually Yace is slightly forced to simplyfy, and also tries
>to look closer at the pawn endgame. In this specific case, Rf6 for a long time
>just is a little bit ahead of Rd7+, so it doesn't help. Ed Schröder once
>mentioned here, that Rebel gives an additional bonus for a seemingly winning
>pawn endgame. With this trick, Rd7+ is found in no time. But it also has
>disadvantages - perhaps not so much in practical games.
>
>>8/p1r1k2p/2PR2p1/6P1/8/8/P4P1P/6K1 w
>
>After 12 minutes, finally Rd7+ is choosen.
>
> 18004216 18.686 1.85 15. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
> h4 Kc5 6. a4 Kb4 7. h5 gxh5 8. Rh6 {80}
> 27161755 28.331 1.90 16t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
> h4 Rc7 6. Ke4 Re7+ 7. Kd5 Re2 8. a3 {HT} {160}
> 30455741 31.650 1.90 16. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
> h4 Rc7 6. Ke4 Re7+ 7. Kd5 Re2 8. a3 {HT} {160}
> 51283841 53.759 1.93 17t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
> h4 Rc7 6. h5 gxh5 7. f5 a6 8. Rh6 {80}
> 53681012 56.289 1.93 17. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7 4. Kf3 Kb6 5.
> h4 Rc7 6. h5 gxh5 7. f5 a6 8. Rh6 {80}
> 112074154 1:58.7 2.05 18t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Re6 Rf7 3. Kg2 {HT}
> 116677256 2:03.6 2.05 18. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Re6 Rf7 3. Kg2
> 243482328 4:19.7 2.04 19t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Kg2 Re7 3. f4 Re2+H 4. Kg3H Ke7H
> 5. f5H gxf5H 6. Rxf5H Rxa2H 7. Rd5H Ke6H 8.
> Rd7H {HT} {80}
> 256365403 4:33.4 2.04 19. 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. Kg2 Re7 3. f4 Re2+ 4. Kg3 Ke7 5.
> f5 gxf5 6. Rxf5 Rxa2 7. Rd5 Ke6 8. Rd7 {HT} {80}
> 645780926 11:39.8 2.12 20t 1. Rf6 Kd8 2. f4 Re7 3. Kf2 Kc7H 4. h4H a5H 5.
> f5H gxf5H 6. Rxf5H Re4H 7. Rxa5H Rxh4H 8. a4H
> {HT} {160}
> 678125210 12:15.1 2.13 20t+ 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. f4 a6
> 5. h4 a5 6. a4H Kd6H 7. Kh3H Kc6H 8. f5H Kd6H
> 9. f6H Kd7H 10. h5H Ke6H {HT} {80}
> 692694548 12:30.6 2.26 20t 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
> 5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kf7 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4 Kd6 9. f5
> gxf5+ 10. Kxf5 Ke7 {HT} {80}
> 724061159 13:05.8 2.26 20. 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
> 5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kf7 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4 Kd6 9. f5
> gxf5+ 10. Kxf5 Ke7 11. Ke4H Kf7H 12. Kf4H Ke7H
> {HT} {80}
> 772805567 14:01.9 2.38 21t 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
> 5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kd6 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4H Kd6H 9.
> f5H gxf5+H 10. Kxf5H Kc6H {80}
> 878453817 15:59.7 2.38 21. 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kxd7 3. Kg2 Ke7 4. Kf3 a6
> 5. h4 a5 6. a4 Kd6 7. Ke4 Ke6 8. f4 Kd6 9. f5
> gxf5+ 10. Kxf5 Kc6 {80}
> 949272646 17:18.8 2.61 22t 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kd8 3. Kg2 Kxd7 4. f4H
> Ke7H 5. Kg3H Kd6H 6. Kf3H Ke7H 7. Ke3H Kd7H 8.
> f5H gxf5H 9. Kf4H Ke6H 10. h4H a6H 11. a3H Ke7H
> 12. Kxf5H h6H {HT} {80}
> 989481947 18:02.7 2.61 22. 1. Rd7+ Rxd7 2. cxd7 Kd8 3. Kg2 Kxd7 4. f4 Ke7
> 5. Kg3 Kd6 6. Kf3 Ke7 7. Ke3 Kd7 8. f5 gxf5 9.
> Kf4 Ke6 10. h4 a6 11. a3 Ke7 12. Kxf5 h6 {HT}
> {80}
>
>Your point reminds me of a postion Steffen Jakob showed here once:
>
>[D] 6k1/2pq4/5Q2/p2PPP2/1p1P4/8/P6P/7K w - - am Qe6;
>
>Here the trade to the pawn endgame loses.
>
>Regards,
>Dieter
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