Author: Mike Hood
Date: 07:52:45 01/13/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 13, 2003 at 09:32:53, Drexel,Michael wrote: >On January 13, 2003 at 08:17:54, Mike Hood wrote: > >>On January 13, 2003 at 07:47:05, Mike Hood wrote: >> >>>On January 13, 2003 at 00:27:28, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>> >>>>On January 12, 2003 at 21:18:25, Mike Hood wrote: >>>> >>>>>A question out of morbid curiosity: what's the highest incorrect score that >>>>>anyone has seen a top chess program award? ie, what's the highest winning score >>>>>that a chess program gives itself, blind to the fact that it must unavoidably >>>>>lose? >>>>> >>>>>The highest score I have seen is Fritz 8 in the recently posted "Georgian >>>>>Peasant" game. >>>>> >>>>>[D] 8/3P3k/n2K3p/2p3n1/1b4N1/2p1p1P1/8/3B4 w >>>>> >>>>>1. Nf6+ Kg7 2. Nh5+ Kg6 3. Bc2+ Kxh5 4. d8=Q Nf7+ 5. Ke6 Nxd8+ 6. Kf5 e2 7. Be4 >>>>>e1=N 8. Bd5 c2 9. Bc4 c1=N 10. Bb5 Nc6 11. Bxc6 Nc7 12. Ba4 Nc2 13. Bxc2 Ne2 >>>>>14. Bd1 Nd5 15. Bxe2# 1-0 >>>>> >>>>>After 3. Bc2+, Fritz 8's winning score for Black soars ever higher: >>>>> >>>>>Analysis by Fritz 8: >>>>> >>>>>3...Kxh5 4.Bd1+ Kg6 5.Kc6 Nb8+ 6.Kd6 Nxd7 7.Kxd7 Kf5 >>>>> -+ (-7.56) Depth: 7/21 00:00:00 71kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-7.84) Depth: 8/27 00:00:00 182kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-8.13) Depth: 9/30 00:00:01 470kN >>>>>3...Kxh5-- >>>>> -+ (-7.84) Depth: 10/23 00:00:01 489kN >>>>>3...Kxh5 4.Bd1+ Kg6 >>>>> -+ (-7.84) Depth: 10/29 00:00:01 678kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-8.13) Depth: 11/29 00:00:03 1375kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-8.41) Depth: 12/35 00:00:08 3525kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-8.69) Depth: 13/38 00:00:22 9391kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-8.97) Depth: 13/40 00:00:34 14045kN >>>>>3...Kxh5 4.Bd1+ Kg6 5.Kd5 Nf7 6.Kc4 Ne5+ 7.Kb3 Nxd7 8.Be2 Nc7 9.Kc2 Kf6 >>>>> -+ (-9.16) Depth: 13/40 00:00:45 18913kN >>>>>3...Kxh5 4.Bd1+ Kg6 5.Kd5 Nf7 6.Kc4 Ne5+ 7.Kb3 Nxd7 8.Kc2 Ne5 9.Be2 Nc7 10.Kd1 >>>>>Kf5 11.Kc2 >>>>> -+ (-9.34) Depth: 14/40 00:01:27 34783kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-9.63) Depth: 15/44 00:03:03 72060kN >>>>>3...Kxh5 4.Bd1+ Kg6 5.Kd5 Nf7 6.Kc4 Ne5+ 7.Kb3 Nxd7 8.Kc2 Ne5 9.Be2 c4 10.Bf1 >>>>>Nc5 11.Be2 Nd3 >>>>> -+ (-9.78) Depth: 16/46 00:06:14 149982kN >>>>>3...Kxh5! >>>>> -+ (-10.06) Depth: 17/47 00:15:11 372788kN >>>>> >>>>>It's not a matter of Fritz choosing the wrong move for Black. Kxh5 is correct, >>>>>but Fritz doesn't expect White to play d8Q! >>>>> >>>>>I'm not just knocking Fritz. None of the chess programs in my possession do any >>>>>better. I even tried setting Fritz's selectivity parameter to zero, to prevent >>>>>null move generation, but found no improvement. So, does anyone have any other >>>>>position that the current top programs totally misjudge? >>>> >>>>[D] kbn1nBRQ/4P1PQ/4P1PQ/6PB/6P1/8/8/7K w - - 0 6 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Fritz 8: >>>> >>>>6.Kg1 Ba7+ 7.Kh2 Nb6 8.Kh1 Nc4 9.Kg2 Ne3+ 10.Kh1 >>>> +- (34.22) Depth: 7/15 00:00:00 3kN >>>>6.Kg1 Ba7+ 7.Kh2 Nb6 8.Kg2 Nd5 9.Kg3 Ndc7 10.Kh2 Nxe6 >>>> +- (34.06) Depth: 8/17 00:00:00 6kN >>>>6.Kg1 Ba7+ 7.Kh2 Nb6 8.Kg2 Nd5 9.Kh1 Bb8 >>>> +- (33.88) Depth: 9/19 00:00:00 13kN >>>>6.Kg1 Ba7+ 7.Kh2 Nb6 8.Kg2 Nd5 9.Kh1 >>>> +- (33.88) Depth: 10/22 00:00:00 24kN >>>>6.Kg1-- >>>> +- (33.31) Depth: 11/11 00:00:00 24kN >>>>6.Kg1 Ba7+ 7.Kh2 >>>> +- (33.31) Depth: 11/18 00:00:00 56kN >>>>6.Kg2! >>>> +- (33.34) Depth: 11/18 00:00:00 75kN >>>>6.Kg2 Nb6 7.Kf3 Nd5 8.Ke2 Nf4+ 9.Kf2 Ba7+ 10.Kf3 Bb8 11.Ke4 >>>> +- (33.25) Depth: 12/26 00:00:00 213kN >>>>6.Kg2 Nb6 7.Kf3 Nd5 8.Ke2 Bf4 9.Kf2 Kb7 10.Kf1 Kb8 11.Kf2 Ndf6 12.gxf6 >>>> +- (33.13) Depth: 13/28 00:00:00 410kN >>>>6.Kg2 Nb6 7.Kf3 Nd5 8.Ke2 Bf4 9.Kf2 Kb8 10.Kg2 Ka8 11.Kf1 Ndf6 12.gxf6 >>>> +- (32.97) Depth: 14/29 00:00:00 612kN >>>>6.Kg2 Nb6 7.Kf3 Nd5 8.Ke2 Bf4 9.Kf2 Kb8 10.Kf3 Kc8 11.Ke2 Kb8 >>>> +- (32.84) Depth: 15/30 00:00:01 1041kN >>>>6.Kg2-- >>>> +- (32.56) Depth: 16/30 00:00:01 1412kN >>>>6.Kg2 Nb6 7.Kf3 Nd5 >>>> +- (32.56) Depth: 16/30 00:00:02 1653kN >>>>6.Kg2-- >>>> +- (32.28) Depth: 17/32 00:00:02 2074kN >>>>6.Kg2 Nb6 7.Kf3 Nd5 >>>> +- (32.28) Depth: 17/32 00:00:03 2966kN >>>>6.Kg2-- >>>> +- (32.00) Depth: 18/32 00:00:04 3308kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bxg5 >>>>13.Kg2 Nf4+ 14.Kh1 Bxh6 >>>> +- (28.53) Depth: 18/50 00:00:12 10755kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bxg5 >>>>13.Kg2 Nf4+ 14.Kh1 Bxh6 >>>> +- (28.53) Depth: 19/36 00:00:15 13607kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bxg5 >>>>13.Kg2 Kb7 14.Qxg5 Nxg5 15.Qh6 Ne4 >>>> +- (28.53) Depth: 20/36 00:00:20 18279kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bf4+ >>>>13.Kg1 Nxg5 14.Kg2 Ka7 15.Kh1 Nh3 >>>> +- (28.38) Depth: 21/42 00:00:34 30397kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bf4+ >>>>13.Kg1 Nxg5 14.Kg2 Ka7 15.Kh1 Ne6 >>>> +- (28.38) Depth: 22/44 00:00:51 46491kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bf4+ >>>>13.Kg1 Nxg5 14.Kg2 Ka7 15.Kh1 Ne6 >>>> +- (28.38) Depth: 23/46 00:01:22 78628kN >>>>6.Kg2 Bf4 7.Kf3 Bc1 8.Kg3 Ncd6 9.Kf2 Ne4+ 10.Kf3 Nc5 11.Kg3 Nxe6 12.Kh2 Bf4+ >>>>13.Kg1 Nxg5 14.Kg2 Ka7 15.Kh1 Ka8 >>>> +- (28.38) Depth: 24/47 00:02:31 147989kN >>> >>>Thanks, Michael, although judging by the line Fritz is expecting, it could be a >>>matter of horizon effect that will be solved by a deep enough search. I suspect >>>that if I let Fritz run for a few hours the evaluation will slowly get smaller. >>>I "only" have a Pentium 3-733, but I'll let it run until this evening. >> >>After the first 45 minutes... Fritz's evaluation has dropped slightly, but >>unfortunately his highest priority is capturing the pawn on e6. This takes him 7 >>moves. Let's see if he gets round to a sensible attack when this totally >>superfluous manoeuvre is over..... > >Yes, to place this pawn on e6 was really mean. >Shredder has much better code regarding immobility of pieces: > > >Analysis by Shredder 7: > >1.Kg2 > +- (35.97) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 > +- (36.32) Depth: 2/3 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 > +- (36.32) Depth: 2/3 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 2.Kf2 > +- (36.14) Depth: 3/5 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 2.Kg1 Lb8 > +- (28.78) Depth: 4/5 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 2.Kg1 Lb8 > +- (28.78) Depth: 4/5 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 2.Kg1 Sf6 3.gxf6 > +- (29.03) Depth: 5/6 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 2.Kf2 Sf6 3.gxf6 > +- (29.53) Depth: 5/7 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lf4 2.Kf2 Lxg5 3.Dxg5 > +- (30.37) Depth: 5/7 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Le5 2.Kg1 Lf4 3.Kg2 > +- (30.12) Depth: 6/9 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Le5 2.Kf2 Lf4 3.Ke2 Lb8 > +- (29.39) Depth: 6/9 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Le5 3.Ke4 Sf6+ 4.Kxe5 > +- (23.13) Depth: 6/9 00:00:00 >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Le5 3.Ke4 Sf6+ 4.Kxe5 Sxg4+ 5.Lxg4 > +- (23.38) Depth: 7/9 00:00:00 9kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Ka7 3.Ke4 Lh2 > +- (23.87) Depth: 7/17 00:00:00 16kN >1.Kg2 Kb7 2.Kf1 Sa7 3.Ke2 Sf6 4.gxf6 > +- (24.10) Depth: 8/20 00:00:00 52kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf2 Lh2 3.Ke1 Lg3+ 4.Kd1 Lh2 5.Kd2 Lf4+ 6.Kd1 Lh2 7.Kd2 Lf4+ 8.Kd1 >Lh2 9.Kd2 > +- (23.86) Depth: 9/24 00:00:00 120kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf2 Lf4 3.Ke2 Sc7 4.e8D Lxg5 5.Dxc8 Sxe6 6.Dxe6 > +- (23.85) Depth: 10/23 00:00:00 215kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Kb7 3.Ke4 Lb6 4.Kd3 Ka8 5.Kc3 La5+ 6.Kb2 Lc7 7.Kc1 Lb6 8.Kc2 > +- (23.60) Depth: 11/25 00:00:01 349kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke4 Scd6+ 4.Kd3 Lf2 5.Kc3 Le3 6.Kc2 Ld4 7.Kd1 La7 8.Ke1 >Kb7 > +- (23.10) Depth: 11/25 00:00:01 446kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke4 Scd6+ 4.Kf4 Kb7 5.Kf3 Ka8 6.Kg2 Sc8 7.Kh1 Lc7 8.Kg2 > +- (18.24) Depth: 11/25 00:00:01 551kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke4 Scd6+ 4.Kf4 Ka7 5.Kf3 Sxg7 6.D7xg7 Ka8 7.Ke2 Sc8 8.e8D >Ld8 9.Dxd8 > +- (18.23) Depth: 12/25 00:00:02 617kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke4 Scd6+ 4.Kf4 Ka7 5.Kf3 Ka8 6.Kg3 Ka7 7.Kh3 Kb7 8.Kh2 >Sc8 9.Kh1 La5 10.Kg2 Ka8 > +- (18.24) Depth: 13/25 00:00:02 694kN >1.Kg2 Lc7 2.Kf2 Lb6+ 3.Ke1 Scd6 4.Ke2 Kb7 5.Kf1 Ka8 6.Ke2 Kb7 7.Kf1 Ka8 8.Ke2 >Kb7 > +- (18.04) Depth: 14/27 00:00:02 923kN >1.Kg2 La7 2.Kf1 Scd6 3.Ke1 > +- (17.84) Depth: 15/31 00:00:06 2657kN >1.Kg2 Ld6 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Ke4 Lb4 4.Ke5 Scd6 5.Kd4 > +- (17.59) Depth: 16/27 00:00:08 3393kN >1.Kg2 Ld6 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Ke4 Lb4 4.Ke5 Scd6 5.Kd4 > +- (17.09) Depth: 16/27 00:00:08 3430kN >1.Kg2 Ld6 2.Kf3 Lb4 3.Kf2 Sxe7 4.Lxe7 Lxe7 5.Txe8+ Ka7 6.g8D Kb6 7.Txe7 Ka6 >8.Ke2 > +- (14.31) Depth: 16/29 00:00:11 4988kN >1.Kg2 Ld6 2.Kf3 Lb4 3.Kf2 Scd6 4.Kf1 > +- (14.06) Depth: 17/29 00:00:14 6679kN >1.Kg2 Ld6 2.Kf3 Lb4 3.Kf2 Scd6 4.Kf1 Kb8 5.Kg2 Sc8 6.Kh3 > +- (13.56) Depth: 17/29 00:00:15 7276kN >1.Kg2 Ld6 2.Kf2 Lb4 3.Kg1 > +- (13.30) Depth: 17/30 00:00:21 11770kN >1.Kg2 La7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke2 Scd6 4.Kd3 Kb8 5.Kc3 Ka8 6.Kc2 La5 7.Kb3 Kb8 8.Ka2 Kb7 >9.Kb1 Ka8 10.Kc2 > +- (13.05) Depth: 18/41 00:00:36 20621kN >1.Kg2 La7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke2 Scd6 4.Kd3 Ka7 5.Kc3 La5+ 6.Kb3 Kb6 7.Kc2 Sc4 8.Kd1 >Scd6 9.Ke2 Kc5 10.Kd3 Kb6 > +- (12.55) Depth: 18/41 00:00:49 27125kN >1.Kg2 La7 2.Kf3 Lb6 3.Ke2 Scd6 4.Kd2 Sxg7 > +- (12.55) Depth: 18/42 00:00:58 31207kN >1.Kg1 La7+ 2.Kg2 Scd6 > +- (12.56) Depth: 18/42 00:01:00 32025kN >1.Kg1 La7+ 2.Kg2 Scd6 3.Kf3 Lb6 4.Ke2 La5 5.Kd3 Lb6 6.Kd2 Sxg7 > +- (12.57) Depth: 18/42 00:01:04 33703kN >1.Kg1 La7+ 2.Kg2 Scd6 3.Kf3 Lb6 4.Ke2 La5 5.Kd3 Ka7 6.Kc2 > +- (12.52) Depth: 19/37 00:01:12 37763kN >1.Kg2 La7 > +- (12.53) Depth: 19/37 00:01:12 37928kN >1.Kg2 Scd6 2.Kf3 Ka7 3.Ke2 > +- (12.53) Depth: 19/37 00:01:17 40199kN >1.Kg2 Scd6 2.Kf3 Ka7 3.Ke2 Sb5 4.Kd3 Lc7 5.Kc4 Sbd6+ 6.Kb4 Kb6 7.Kb3 Ka5 8.Kc3 >Sb5+ 9.Kc4 Ld6 10.Kb3 Kb6 11.Kb2 Le5+ 12.Kc2 Lb8 13.Kb3 Ld6 14.Kb2 Le5+ 15.Kc2 > +- (12.28) Depth: 20/30 00:01:19 41350kN >1.Kg2 Scd6 2.Kf3 Ka7 3.Ke2 Sb5 4.Kd3 Lc7 5.Kc4 Sbd6+ 6.Kb4 Kb6 7.Kb3 Ka5 8.Kc3 >Sb5+ 9.Kb3 > +- (11.78) Depth: 20/31 00:01:19 41732kN >1.Kg2 Scd6 2.Kf2 Ka7 3.Ke2 Sb5 4.Kd3 Lc7 5.Kc2 Lb8 6.Kb3 Kb6 7.Kb2 > +- (3.31) Depth: 20/41 00:01:46 55970kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Scd6 3.Ke2 Sb5 4.Kd3 Lc7 5.Kc4 Kb6 6.Kb3 Lb8 7.Kb2 Kb7 8.Kc1 > +- (3.25) Depth: 21/43 00:02:34 81168kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Kb6 3.Ke2 Sa7 4.Kd2 Sb5 5.Kc2 Sbd6 6.Kb2 Kc5 7.Kc2 Sc4 8.Kd3 >Se5+ 9.Kd2 Sf3+ 10.Kd1 Sd4 11.Ke1 > +- (3.00) Depth: 22/41 00:03:25 106511kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Kb6 3.Ke2 Sa7 4.Kd2 Sb5 5.Kc2 Kc5 6.Kd3 Sd4 7.Ke3 > +- (2.50) Depth: 22/41 00:03:33 111505kN >1.Kg2 Sa7 2.Kf2 Kb7 3.Ke3 Sxg7 4.Lxg7 Sb5 5.e8D Sd6 6.Dxb8+ Kc6 7.Kd3 Sb5 >8.Dxb5+ Kxb5 > +- (1.89) Depth: 22/41 00:04:32 144505kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Kb6 3.Ke3 Scd6 4.Kd3 > +- (1.64) Depth: 23/43 00:06:29 221286kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Kb6 3.Ke3 Sa7 4.Kd3 Sb5 5.Kc2 > ± (1.14) Depth: 23/46 00:12:49 472373kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Kb6 3.Ke3 Sa7 4.Kd3 Sb5 5.Ke2 Kc5 6.Kf1 Sd4 7.Kf2 Kb6 > ± (1.04) Depth: 23/47 00:21:04 793180kN >1.Kg2 Ka7 2.Kf3 Kb6 3.Ke3 Sa7 4.Kd3 Sb5 5.Ke2 Kb7 > ± (0.98) Depth: 24/45 00:24:20 902110kN Interesting... I just tried Shredder 7, default settings, 128 MB Cache, and it gives an evaluation of 0.41 after only 4 mins 21 secs. After 0 seconds (8/20 plies) it picks the line 1. Kg2 Nb6 and sticks with it. Your analysis doesn't even consider this continuation. So, after closer analysis, my example of a high incorrect score is better than yours :) Does anyone else have any other examples. My guess is that for a position to be evaluated consistently wrongly by chess engines it has to fulfil two conditions: 1. The winning player must be considerably behind in material. 2. The winning player must make at least one sacrifice to achieve the victory. The Georgian Peasant game fulfils these criteria. White starts behind in material, and can only win by sacrificing his knight and one of his pawns. Anyway, Michael, do you know what the shortest forced mate for White is in your position? Playing by hand, Fritz hindering me rather than helping, I found a Mate in 30, but I suspect it isn't optimal.
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