Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 17:36:08 01/28/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 28, 2003 at 18:00:32, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On January 27, 2003 at 21:15:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 27, 2003 at 15:38:14, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >> >>>On January 27, 2003 at 15:01:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On January 27, 2003 at 11:36:28, Sune Fischer wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 27, 2003 at 10:57:26, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>[snip] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>When did Junior ever "remember" the table bases? >>>>>> >>>>>>When did Frenzee ever remember the Ruy Lopez? Same issue, yes? But I don't see >>>>>>you arguing that opening books are unfair, a la Rolf Tueschen. >>>>> >>>>>That doesn't mean I don't agree with Rolf :) >>>>> >>>>>I just think it is possible to put a bit more of the engine personality into the >>>>>book, for instance with learning. If you win against a higher rated player, >>>>>remember this position as good, if you lose to a lower rated player don't play >>>>>this again. >>>>> >>>>>However, you can see clearly from the discussions going on here that the book is >>>>>not perceived as being part of Junior, statements like: "Junior was lost out of >>>>>book" clearly distinguishes the engine "Junior" from the book _used_ by Junior. >>>>>It is as though Junior didn't lose, it was the book that lost the game on behalf >>>>>of Junior! This is also the natural way to think, it really is two very >>>>>different pieces of software. >>>> >>>>I don't agree. I have heard _many_ humans say "I got into a lost position from >>>>the book line I played." Did they play the line, did they remember it, or did >>>>they do _both_??? >>> >>> >>>Surely you didn't hear GM talk this way becauase it would be a contradiction in >>>itself because GM don't have books. They have analyses. But these are not books >>>yet. Of course GM remember their analyses but at least it's their stuff. >>> >> >>I have heard the following: >> >>1. I did not remember the sequence of moves correctly, bungled the order, and >>played into a lost position. (Kasparov, round 6, 1997 vs deep blue). Implies >>he played _moves_ from memory. Not something he had "learned" by playing the >>games himself. >> >>2. I overlooked that reply in my home-analysis I had prepared, and ended up >>in a lost position. This has been stated by _many_ GM players over the years, >>after they were "out-booked" by their opponent's pre-tournament or pre-match >>preparation. >> >>3. My opponent had done his homework and hit me with a TN I had not seen >>before, leaving me in a terrible position. >> >>Etc... > >Heard or read? Anyway I don't buy that. That is a chapter of research that >hasn't been written yet. They don't talk too much abot this. > > "heard". >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>I don't think the line is that sharp between book and engine, particularly when >>>>there >>>>is "learning" involved. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>The same applies to the egtbs, Junior wouldn't be winning, the egtbs would be. >>>> >>>>Suppose Junior had the code to _build_ the egtbs built in? What then? >>>> >>>>Suppose the EGTBs could be built on the fly, on demand, while the program was >>>>running. What then? >>> >>> >>>Suppose the engine would create a new engine on the fly - say Junior would give >>>birth to Fritz on the fly. Then Kasparov could really take the train back to >>>Moscow. BTW I announce copyright for that idea in CC! Why should that be >>>impossible? Could a Grandmaster NOT change his personality in the middle of a >>>game??? Aha! Bingo. QED. 500000$$$ please. >>> >>> >> >>Sure they can. Kramnik did. It backfired. Kasparov did. It backfired. > >No, also here I doubt that they tried it. Playing a "new" opening does't mean >that change of personality we know from CC. > >Since I read that someone said that Kasparov played a new opening on Sunday let >me say that Kasparov played the opening with both colours. > >Rolf Tueschen > > > >> >>>:) >>> >>> >>>Rolf Tueschen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>However I must agree (I guess) that "the machine" is all of the above, so >>>>>depends on what you want from the match. I think Kasparov wanted to play Junior >>>>>and not the egtbs, so for that reason I think the rules are fine. >>>>> >>>>>-S. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>:) >>>>>>Matt
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