Author: Aaron Gordon
Date: 14:45:25 04/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 29, 2003 at 15:00:51, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On April 29, 2003 at 14:36:39, Aaron Gordon wrote: > >>On April 29, 2003 at 14:20:08, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >> >>>On April 29, 2003 at 10:48:24, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>> >>>>On April 29, 2003 at 02:38:17, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 16:32:10, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 14:50:27, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 22:25:47, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 21:11:59, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I checked Aaron's story with his contact at AMD. The guy said that AMD didn't >>>>>>>>>allow performance testing with the memory _overclocked_, but it certainly isn't >>>>>>>>>underclocked. This makes perfect sense to me. (If you allow overclocking memory, >>>>>>>>>why wouldn't you also overclock the processor? Then all your benchmarks are >>>>>>>>>worthless.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>So SPEC is comparing non-overclocked Intel to non-overclocked AMD and Intel >>>>>>>>>wins. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>When I ran the tests I recalled seeing some information where the P4 was running >>>>>>>>CAS2 and the like. The settings I was told to use put me at CAS 2.5. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It sounds like you don't really know what configs Intel uses for SPEC testing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>How would this be 'fair'? Same thing happens on some review pages, but to a much >>>>>>>>larger degree. As I have proven in the past tomshardware has actually run the >>>>>>>>memory lower than the bus on the athlons tested, put the AGP to 1x, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think we can all agree that review pages may be biased. My point was that SPEC >>>>>>>is not biased, because the vendors are submitting their own scores. >>>>>> >>>>>>I've said this many, many times already. AMD told me to run CL2.5. I've seen >>>>>>them do the same thing for the SPEC benchmark. Try reading the lawsuit message I >>>>>>posted here again. I'm sure they'd run the fastest timings in the bios if they >>>>>>could. I can, and have, and don't have anything to fear from Intel. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>slow. I went and 'rented' one myself. I compared a few clock speeds, I'll post >>>>>>>>what I have so far but the most for now will be just the max both systems could >>>>>>>>do. >>>>>>>>GCC (Linux kernel compile times) >>>>>>>>XP-2.50GHz: 119.5 seconds >>>>>>>>P4-3.32GHz: 126.87 seconds >>>>>>>>Gzip: >>>>>>>>P4-3.32GHz: 25.340 seconds >>>>>>>>XP-2.50GHz: 26.060 seconds >>>>>>> >>>>>>>etc. Your gcc test shows a 41% improvement in IPC for the Athlon, vs. the 9% >>>>>>>improvement in official SPEC submissions. You get a 29% improvement in Gzip vs. >>>>>>>a 22% improvement. How do you explain this? You're obviously a big AMD fan, why >>>>>>>should I think your results are somehow more accurate than results from the >>>>>>>companies themselves? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm only a fan of whats fastest. Also, if I see a good product getting reviewed >>>>>>or tested poorly I'm going to make a comment. AMD, Intel, Cyrix/VIA, doesn't >>>>>>matter. >>>>>> >>>>>>First of all, I used the fastest timings on both systems. I didn't run CL2.5 as >>>>>>some of the SPEC systems run. I used the fastest drivers I could find on both >>>>>>systems. The point is.. when both systems are configured so they just can't >>>>>>possibly go ANY faster this is what you get. Believe what you want, doesn't >>>>>>matter to me either way. I'm just reporting my test results. >>>>> >>>>>Can you run the same tests with slower memory settings? Do you see a 30% >>>>>difference? >>>>> >>>>>-Tom >>>> >>>>When I was doing the Quake3 benchmarks for AMD I saw a little over 20% drop in >>>>FPS from running the slow memory timings. This is why I was wanting them to use >>>>the CAS-2.0, 4-bank interleave, etc settings.. because it beat the crap out of >>>>the P4-2GHz they were testing again. With the timings at the slowest settings >>>>the 1900+/1.6GHz lost by a few fps. >>>> >>>>I didn't try slower timings in the other benchmarks. I'm only interested in what >>>>the systems could at their peak. >>> >>>Interested or not, this indicates that your memory timing explanation probably >>>doesn't entirely explain the differences between your benchmarking and official >>>SPEC submissions. >>> >>>-Tom >> >>The bit of testing I did in the past with crapped out memory timings did prove >>that the memory settings helped. I only said I RECENTLY tested Quake3, that >>doesn't mean I didn't do any testing at all. If I hadn't I wouldn't be making >>such a fuss over this stuff. The ram settings DO help a lot. As I said before, >>you're welcome to telnet into my machine and run the tests yourself. > >\ >However, in the case of Intel or AMD, I'd suspect that if they want to test >using cas 2.5 memory at 133mhz, then they would be hesitant to run that memory >at cas 2.0 even if it would run. Since it is outside the spec provided by the >manufacturer of the memory itself. > >I can't imagine a vendor wanting to publish SPEC numbers, and then have a huge >press release 6 months later saying "vendor used unsafe memory timing to produce >a lead in SPEC numbers..." when that unsafe timing fails for someone else. > >specifications are specifications. Going beyond them invites trouble. I'm >running a Merc V6 outboard and I have taken the compression to extreme levels, >as well as RPM. And I have had to rebuild the thing at _my_ expense when it >comes apart due to my exceeding the specs, even if it were still in the warranty >period. I accept that without a hassle. > >Just because John Tiger can run his stock merc at 7500 against an advertised >peak rpm of 6500 does _not_ mean that someone else is going to be able to do >it with success... > >Same for memory, or anything else. I trust the manufacturers to test and decide >on what the upper bounds are, and I live within those if I want reliability. >For racing someone up and down the river here, I want horsepower, with >reliability a distant second place overall. But the average mom and pop that >take their runabout out for a Sunday afternoon of skiing or pulling a tube >around the lake want _reliability_. And that is what Mercury/Evinrude/Intel/AMD >want to provide... > >Us "hot rodders" want something different, but we don't necessarily have to push >_our_ wants down "mom and pops" throats... I completely understand, but I'm curious as to the rating Corsair put on the ram itself. I emailed them about it and will post the response here if I get one.
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