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Subject: Re: Are programs good enough to play at postal GM level?

Author: georges alain

Date: 05:24:43 06/18/03

Go up one level in this thread


On June 18, 2003 at 06:19:26, James T. Walker wrote:

>On June 18, 2003 at 05:51:38, georges alain wrote:
>
>>On June 18, 2003 at 04:26:06, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On June 18, 2003 at 03:47:38, georges alain wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 02:06:35, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 01:46:51, Peter Hegger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello,
>>>>>>On very fast hardware with todays best programs, how would those programs fare
>>>>>>in a round robin correspondence tournament playing exclusively against postal
>>>>>>GMs?
>>>>>>Even if they couldn't yet compete at this level, how far off is the day when
>>>>>>they are bona fide postal GM strength?
>>>>>>Opinions?
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>I believe that they can compete at this level.
>>>>>GM's in correspondence chess are players who played well in the past relative to
>>>>>their opponents.
>>>>>It tells me nothing about their level relative to computers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>GM's who got their rating not in the last years may be even weaker than
>>>>>computers because they did not use fast hardware to get their rating.
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>Not sure !
>>>>Christophe Léotard, better French ELO by correspondence, pulverized on 4 parts
>>>>the softwares  Hiarcs 7 and Chess Tiger 14 (+3=1-0).
>>>
>>>The hardware was not fast hardware and I think that at least Hiarcs chose bad
>>>opening because of book.
>>>
>>>It is better if programs trust less the open library in that time control and
>>>leave the opening book earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>>>" The more time of reflexion is reduced, the less the man can compete.  By
>>>>correspondence, it is not rare to reflect 15 days on a position, to analyze
>>>>alternatives which go from the opening to the finale.  In addition, the human
>>>>ones have a great advantage on the machines in the sense that their libraries of
>>>>opening are largely higher, as well qualitatively as quantitatively.  It is far
>>>>from being the case with the clock.  The world n°1 by correspondence, Timmerman,
>>>>is classified 2734.  It is established that the best machines do not exceed 2100
>>>>at rate correspondence, and I am perhaps still too generous."
>>>
>>>No
>>>
>>>Based on my experience it is not the case and I won a lot of 2500+ or 2400+
>>>players based on mainly computer moves.
>>>
>>>Steve Ham played against computers and lost 2.5-1.5 and he also did not play
>>>against the best software and the best hardware of today.
>>>
>>>I expect 2600 player to beat 2100 player 4-0 in most of the cases so even the
>>>3.5-.5 suggests that the programs are more than 2100.
>>>
>>>I do not understand french so I am not going to respond to the last comments.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>Hello
>>
>>You are right if you speak about "chess with clock" but coresspondance chess are
>>very different: no time pressure, no tactics tricks, possibility to check your
>>opening line in an encyclopedia. or in database.
>>
>>Look for exemple a the last game of the match Junior-Kasparov.
>>Kasparov was in a véry good position beut hard to win so he prefer to drawn the
>>game and the match. Do you really think that kasparov would have draw this game
>>in correspondance chess ? certainly not.
>>
>>please excuse my poor english
>>
>>Phili
>
>But would this position arise in corrrespondence chess?  You talk of how
>Kasparov would do better with more time but what about the computer?  It's not
>going to do better also?  Another thing.  You talk about the best chess player
>in the world not just an ordinary GM.  Why is it when people try to claim
>computers are not GM level they always want to compare the the #1 rated player
>when there are hundreds of GM players that computers beat easily.
>Jim

hello
Computers don't do much better with more time , have you tried to replay the
games of this match on your computer ? I do, with a computer wich is a least 10
x less faster, moves are often the same! .
in the contrary With more time humans plays much, much better. When you can
think about a move for 0ne or two weeks!!, moves pieces on the board, cheks your
openings. your level of play increase dramatically.  the match of kasparov was
just an examplein the beginning I was talking about Christophe Léotard, wich is
"just" the better French ELO by correspondence, not the world champion in
correspondance chess but pulverized on 4 parts Hiarcs 7 and Chess Tiger 14
(+3=1-0)!!



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