Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:13:10 10/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
On October 29, 2003 at 04:06:35, Sune Fischer wrote: >On October 28, 2003 at 23:16:47, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>Go to the first Trevemunde (I am not sure that is spelled correctly and I am >>at home and don't have my files here with me) WMCCC event. Read the reports >>about the "fixing" of certain games. > >I'm a little bored with that argument, because it's just plain cheating and has >nothing to do with the finer point in the discussion. I didn't bring it up, I just pointed out that there were _plenty_ of examples of contrived results to favor a company over a single instance of a chess program. > >>You are overlooking the issue of a single company with three entries. The >>company wants to finish in first place. The company could certainly suggest >>that one of their programs lose to another of their programs, if that program >>is currently capable of winning while the first is not. >> >>That is a problem. >> >>It wasn't what happened in the current tournament, of course, but it has >>certainly happened in the past. >> >>But I could care less about that. I just don't want to face the _same_ book >>from multiple opponents, when that same book is prepared by a very capable >>book author, considering that I do my own book and it takes away from my >>development time... > >I don't care so much about it, because everybody knows using a better book gives >you an advantage, and that definitely takes away some of the "glory" from the >engine if it wins, IMO. >How many people use this book is not important to me, but those that do just >have the advantage. >There is no preventing people from exchanging ideas and algorithms as well, so >you might also be facing very simlar programs, just not much we can do about. I don't mind sharing ideas, or even making suggestions for the book. But to put someone on creating a book with a significant effort, then letting multiple programs use that book, seems unreasonable to me. As I said, a typical chess game lasts 50 moves. I have played _many_ games where the first 20-25 moves come from the book. That is a _major_ influence on the result, since the book supplies 1/2 of the total moves played in the game... That is _direct_ involvement in the final outcome, providing just as many moves as the actual chess engine. If three programs can share the same book, should we not allow the same program to enter three times with three different books? Same thing _exactly_. > >It's like Porche competing with 10 cars on Le Mans, of course they have 10 times >as big a chance to win, still if a team competing with just one car gets 2nd >place and Porche takes 1st, 5th and 7th and the rest doesn't finish. >Then that one on the second spot is going to appear as a better car "on >average", wouldn't you agree? Yes, but that is apples and oranges. Computer chess events do _not_ allow me to enter multiple engines in a single tournament. For obvious reasons. > >I certainly tend to weigh things out like that, I always try and consider the >*whole* picture :) As do I. And IMHO the picture is ugly... > >If there is a great deal of money involved the "glory" is less important than >simply winning, and you may have a point there (not really an issue in computer >chess events I'm afraid:). I disagree. When I compete in anything, I want a level playing field. Whether it be chess, checkers, tennis or fishing. > >>>Whether just one person gets to use the book or x people uses it, makes no >>>difference to all those that don't get to use it, it will all be "unfair" to >>>them. >> >>You can't be "unfair" with just one. > >Why not? >I definitely feel cheated, I would like to use the Kure book as well :) I rest my case. I would too... :) Chessbase distributes a crafty binary for their GUI. Shouldn't I therefore be able to use their book? :) > >>>So I guess that basicly leaves you at a crossroad: >>>either we all use the book or nobody uses it! >>> >>>Is that fair? >> >> >>I like the idea of one book, one program, one "electronic chess player". >>They are a combination thing, but the book is a part of the total package. > >Yes it is, and if the program gets sold with that book or gets to play with that >book on an everyday basis, it should be able to use it for competitions also >otherwise you ruin the package. > >-S.
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