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Subject: Re: Usage of general.ctg book+CB learner by ChessMaster in SSDF testing

Author: Luis Smith

Date: 21:44:33 10/30/03

Go up one level in this thread


On October 31, 2003 at 00:33:11, Luis Smith wrote:

>On October 30, 2003 at 22:21:39, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On October 30, 2003 at 17:58:29, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On October 30, 2003 at 17:10:25, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 30, 2003 at 14:32:08, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't understand why ChessMaster is allowed to use a Kure book (general.ctg)
>>>>>in the SSDF testing.
>>>>>
>>>>>Last time this happened (with Gromit) it was specifically said by Alex Kure
>>>>>that it was _not_ allowed to use the Fritz books to test anything other
>>>>>than Fritz. So why is ChessMaster using it now? Did Kure give permission
>>>>>(which I seriously doubt)?
>>>>>
>>>>>IMHO using the ChessBase learner for ChessMaster is also very questionable.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>GCP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I agree to both of your points.
>>>>
>>>>If Kure does not allow one of its books to be used, it is unfair to let CM9000
>>>>use it.
>>>>
>>>>CM9000 is not a ChessBase product, so it is unfair to allow the engine to use
>>>>the ChessBase book learning system.
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for bringing it to our attention. I'm extremely surprised that the
>>>>SSDF guys do something that is clearly against the spirit of their list.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Christophe
>>>
>>>CM9000 is not a chessbase product but I think that the ssdf should be allowed to
>>>test every combination of engine, book and learning.
>>>
>>>After all the interesting question is what is the best thing that people can buy
>>>and if people can buy chessmaster together with Fritz book and get something
>>>better than it is important to know it.
>>>
>>>SSDF have not enough time to test every combination and this is the reason that
>>>they should prefer the programmer choice in case that he suggests something(I
>>>guess that in this case Johan suggested nothing so they are free to test it in
>>>the way that they want to do it)
>>>
>>>I think that book makers should not be allowed to forbid people to test their
>>>book with another program.
>>>
>>>They earn enough from not allowing other people to use their book in world
>>>championship or from the fact that people know that the ssdf leader used their
>>>book.
>>>
>>>Chessbase also can earn money if people know that the programmer chose to test
>>>chessmaster under chessbase because it means that people may buy both chessbase
>>>interface and chessmaster.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>
>>
>>Come on, Uri...
>>
>>Maybe you hope that some day the same favor will be allowed for Movei?
>>
>>It's ridiculous. The spirit of the SSDF has always been to test the programs
>>"out of the box", unless the programmer himself suggests a change in the default
>>setup.
>>
>>Here it's not an "out of the box" program that is tested, because it cannot be
>>tested automatically.
>>
>>OK, I can understand that.
>>
>>But WHY would this program receive TWO UNFAIR ADVANTAGES?
>>
>>Why would the SSDF give an advantage when the author and the manufacturer of the
>>program in question have provided no help to solve the issues of the book and
>>the GUI???
>
>IIRC Two versions of Chesstiger 15 were tested in the SSDF.  Would you call that
>an "unfair" advantage?  Doubling the chance to top the list.  You weren't
>calling SSDF on that one

Sorry I've gotta correct myself, only 1 version was tested.  I could have
sworn...

>
>Also note that Shredder 7.04 wasn't "out of the box"
>It was a download patch, with perhaps different settings or bug fixes.  Is that
>an "unfair advantage".  I would be suprised if Stephan reccomended(sp?) those to
>Tony and SSDF.
>
>Crafty, Gromit, and other engines were allowed to use general.ctg, you weren't
>calling SSDF on that one either.
>
>Besides rules and traditions change IMO this is a good thing.  Most users of
>these engines usually don't use default settings, so it makes sense to test the
>popular ones.
>
>>
>>If this is allowed now by the SSDF, I guess chess programmers do not have to
>>write an opening book. Just write an engine and send it to the SSDF, they will
>>add a GUI, book learning and a very strong opening book.
>>
>>In two years from now the Kure book will be standard and all the SSDF games will
>>end in a draw because all games will be Kure book against Kure book.
>>
>>Instead of giving CM9000 TWO unfair advantages it should:
>>* either not be tested at all
>>* or be tested without opening (and without book learning of course)
>>
>>What's the next step? "Dear SSDF, I have written a chess program that cannot
>>play the endgame, so please switch to Shredder when you reach the endgame stage.
>>Thank you."
>>
>>
>>
>>    Christophe



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