Author: Mike Byrne
Date: 19:33:36 11/10/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 10, 2003 at 22:15:23, Bob Durrett wrote:
>On November 10, 2003 at 21:29:15, Mike Byrne wrote:
>
>>On November 10, 2003 at 20:59:25, Bob Durrett wrote:
>>
>>>On November 10, 2003 at 15:00:53, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>>According to Chessbase GM Shaposhnikov has been disqualified from the first
>>>>European Internet championships qualifier because he supposedly used a computer
>>>>program.
>>>>
>>>>I just looked at some of his games.
>>>>He indeed played many moves suggested also by Fritz 8 after a few seconds.
>>>>
>>>>There is some evidence. Is it enough to disqualify a GM?
>>>>I wonder whether they had more.
>>>>
>>>>[D]4rr1k/1bq1n2p/pp1ppbp1/8/2P1PPQ1/1P2B2P/P3N2K/1BR3R1 b - - 0 30
>>>>
>>>>In this position Shaposhnikov played 30...Nf5 in 3 seconds.
>>>>
>>>>[D] 4rr1k/1bq1n2p/pp1ppbp1/8/2P1PPQ1/1P2B2P/P3N2K/1BR3R1 b - - 0 30
>>>>
>>>>Here 21.f4 in 8 seconds.
>>>>
>>>>In the game against Chessbase member Rainer Knaak he played quite a few Fritz
>>>>moves in a row...
>>>>
>>>>[Event "EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP - CANDIDATES TOUR"]
>>>>[Site "playchess.com"]
>>>>[Date "2003.11.08"]
>>>>[Round "11"]
>>>>[White "SerS"]
>>>>[Black "E-Shaposhnikov"]
>>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>>[WhiteElo "2632"]
>>>>[BlackElo "2798"]
>>>>[PlyCount "80"]
>>>>[EventDate "2003.11.08"]
>>>>
>>>>1. e4 {2} c5 {1} 2. Nf3 {1} e6 {1} 3. d3 {1} d5 {2} 4. Qe2 {2} g6 {3} 5. g3 {2}
>>>>Bg7 {1} 6. Bg2 {1} Nf6 {1} 7. O-O {8} Nc6 {1} 8. c3 {12} O-O {5} 9. Re1 {10}
>>>>Nd7 {1} 10. Bf4 {11} d4 {6} 11. e5 {6} h6 {7} 12. h4 {3} Nb6 {16} 13. c4 {3}
>>>>Nd7 {7} 14. Nbd2 {2} Kh7 {8} 15. Nf1 {5} Qe7 {8} 16. N1h2 {2} Rb8 {9} 17. Ng4 {
>>>>5} Re8 {5} 18. a3 {11} Qf8 {7} 19. Rab1 {6} a5 {3} 20. b3 {6} Ra8 {2} 21. Qe4 {
>>>>6} Ne7 {16} 22. b4 {6} axb4 {2} 23. axb4 {2} Nf5 {4} 24. h5 {8} gxh5 {11} 25.
>>>>Nf6+ {15} Bxf6 {9} 26. exf6 {1} Nxf6 {2} 27. Qe2 {9} cxb4 {9} 28. Be5 {7} Nd7 {
>>>>5} 29. Nd2 {1} Nxe5 {9} 30. Qxe5 {1} Qg7 {1} 31. Qe4 {4} Ra2 {3} 32. Nf3 {5}
>>>>Rg8 {3} 33. Rf1 {13} Kh8 {4} 34. Rxb4 {14} Nxg3 {9} 35. fxg3 {7} Rxg2+ {4} 36.
>>>>Kh1 {6} Rxg3 {2} 37. Rb2 {8} Rh3+ {8} 38. Nh2 {6} f5 {4} 39. Qe2 {6} Bd7 {9}
>>>>40. Rb6 {5} Rg3 {SerS resigns 6} 0-1
>>>>
>>>>and in this game he played some quite strong (computer?) moves in a complicated
>>>>position.
>>>>
>>>>[Event "EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP - CANDIDATES TOUR"]
>>>>[Site "playchess.com"]
>>>>[Date "2003.11.08"]
>>>>[Round "11"]
>>>>[White "SerS"]
>>>>[Black "E-Shaposhnikov"]
>>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>>[WhiteElo "2632"]
>>>>[BlackElo "2798"]
>>>>[PlyCount "80"]
>>>>[EventDate "2003.11.08"]
>>>>
>>>>1. e4 {2} c5 {1} 2. Nf3 {1} e6 {1} 3. d3 {1} d5 {2} 4. Qe2 {2} g6 {3} 5. g3 {2}
>>>>Bg7 {1} 6. Bg2 {1} Nf6 {1} 7. O-O {8} Nc6 {1} 8. c3 {12} O-O {5} 9. Re1 {10}
>>>>Nd7 {1} 10. Bf4 {11} d4 {6} 11. e5 {6} h6 {7} 12. h4 {3} Nb6 {16} 13. c4 {3}
>>>>Nd7 {7} 14. Nbd2 {2} Kh7 {8} 15. Nf1 {5} Qe7 {8} 16. N1h2 {2} Rb8 {9} 17. Ng4 {
>>>>5} Re8 {5} 18. a3 {11} Qf8 {7} 19. Rab1 {6} a5 {3} 20. b3 {6} Ra8 {2} 21. Qe4 {
>>>>6} Ne7 {16} 22. b4 {6} axb4 {2} 23. axb4 {2} Nf5 {4} 24. h5 {8} gxh5 {11} 25.
>>>>Nf6+ {15} Bxf6 {9} 26. exf6 {1} Nxf6 {2} 27. Qe2 {9} cxb4 {9} 28. Be5 {7} Nd7 {
>>>>5} 29. Nd2 {1} Nxe5 {9} 30. Qxe5 {1} Qg7 {1} 31. Qe4 {4} Ra2 {3} 32. Nf3 {5}
>>>>Rg8 {3} 33. Rf1 {13} Kh8 {4} 34. Rxb4 {14} Nxg3 {9} 35. fxg3 {7} Rxg2+ {4} 36.
>>>>Kh1 {6} Rxg3 {2} 37. Rb2 {8} Rh3+ {8} 38. Nh2 {6} f5 {4} 39. Qe2 {6} Bd7 {9}
>>>>40. Rb6 {5} Rg3 {SerS resigns 6} 0-1
>>>>
>>>>Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>If anybody can distinguish between the moves of Fritz and of a human GM, it
>>>should be a team of real human GMs. One would have to have a lot of "guts" to
>>>use Fritz in a GM tournament when the tournament rules exclude computer
>>>assistance! [Of course, it's OK in "Advanced Chess" tournaments.]
>>>
>>>I suspect that most if not all of the people here at CCC would be unable to
>>>reliably distinguish between GM moves and Fritz moves. How many of us are "FIDE
>>>certified and fully bonified" GMs? How many of us can reliably recognize the
>>>difference between a GM move and the chess move of a lesser human?
>>>
>>>The real question to me is: To what extent are modern chess engine moves
>>>different from GM moves? The positions where long-range planning is required
>>>might be one case where the difference might be evident. But I am not a GM, so
>>>I cannot say for sure.
>>>
>>>Bob D.
>>
>>It's not one specific move - it 's the pattern of moves - playing the exact same
>>moves as a program over a fixed number of moves. In real life, that does happen
>>over and over again in sequential games. It's the same method that a chess
>>program clone is identified. Computers will play the same move over and over
>>again in the same position. It's identifiable and repeatable- in fact every
>>program gives off a "signature" in every game that can be identfied. No human
>>will play 8 moves in a row in exact sequence of a program and then do that again
>>in the next game. Humans, GM or not, do not play like computers in that type of
>>sequencing (carbon copy 8 moves in a row non/opening/non end game - essentialy
>>random positions ) and then do it again the very next game. It may happen once
>>in a long while, it will not happen in back-to back games.
>
>I vaguely recall a bulletin some one posted here quite awhile back. The idea
>expressed then was that the moves a chess engine selects, especially in blitz,
>depends on how much time the opponent takes, assuming pondering is on. The
>variabillity/uncertainty in the times taken add a degree of
>randomness/uncertainty in the move selections. Hence the notion that the moves
>are completely repeatable is not quite on the mark. Only if the times taken
>were the same and the computer were the same would the moves necessarily be the
>same. Perhaps other factors, such as the size of the hash tables, personality
>settings, and the speed of the processor(s) might also be variables which would
>add some variation from one trial to the next. How can the tester make sure
>that all such variables are the same when the game score is examined
>post-mortem?
Exactly - with all those variables you just described -- it would be pretty
co-incidental that a human played just like a computer for 8 sequential moves.
BINGO! It's a really a form of forensic science> I did this and have watched
thousands of compuer chess games - you do get a feel for when it is human or
silicon. Any any active ICC Computer user, Hyatt etc, DrUnclear etc.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/8655/Old_Browsers/DocUnclear.htm
>
>Nevertheless, there may still be a lot of correlation between the move sequences
>of one engine and another. I'm not sure how much, however.
>
>The question which bothers me most about all this is that I, as a chess amateur,
>do not have the slightest clue as to what moves a GM would make in blitz chess.
>How could I say that a particular move sequence is NOT one that a GM might come
>up with?
>
>Bob D.
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