Author: Uri Blass
Date: 08:17:24 11/13/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 13, 2003 at 10:58:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On November 13, 2003 at 10:21:45, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On November 13, 2003 at 10:03:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On November 13, 2003 at 01:59:30, Les Fernandez wrote: >>> >>>>On November 12, 2003 at 18:21:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 18:04:18, Dan Sicerly wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 13:24:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:56:09, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:21:46, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:16:44, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 02:11:04, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I'm reading through all these posts and watched the games, and something >>>>>>>>>>>occurred to me, especially what the CEO of chessbase said, that kasparov was >>>>>>>>>>>sent the versions of x3d fritz as they were created...so... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>If chessbase were able to clone kasparov use him, study him, poke holes in his >>>>>>>>>>>game, analyse him for hundreds of hours, how well would they do? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>But thats a question we'll never be able to answer, but how about this , >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>If they sent x3d version fritz with the same hardware to a large super >>>>>>>>>>>grandmaster tournament, a round robin, where all the players not only had to >>>>>>>>>>>prepare for the computer, but other humans, how would it fair? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I think we are seriously under estimating this beast... >>>>>>>>>>>just my opinion of course. >>>>>>>>>>>-Derek >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>This is exactly what chessbase want you to believe. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I think that all these matches are unimportant matches and it may be better if >>>>>>>>>>we ignore them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I do not trust the humans in these match to try to win the matches and I suspect >>>>>>>>>>that they believe that draw can give them more money. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I can add that the fact that kasparov got another match after drawing with Fritz >>>>>>>>>when Smirin never got another match after beating the machines increase my >>>>>>>>>impression(hardware was slower against smirin but time control was also faster >>>>>>>>>and the second factor is something that is supposed to help the machines so I >>>>>>>>>think that smirin's result is better than kasparov's result and kramnik's >>>>>>>>>result). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Players may believe that it is better if they do not win because if they draw >>>>>>>>>they have better chances to get another match. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Kasparov lost to IBM Deeper Blue and still has not gotten a rematch, and I >>>>>>>>believe that X3D Fritz with the inferior hardware is much better than Deeper >>>>>>>>Blue :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Why don't you knock off the wild speculation, and just watch. If fritz >>>>>>>wins, it might be as good as, or better than deep blue. If it loses, it >>>>>>>isn't. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You're not just being funny are you? I have heard you say a million times >>>>>>that the numbers that deepblue calculates makes it impossible for any micro to >>>>>>beat it. >>>>> >>>>>I still believe that although the gap is closing. IE I have seen a quad-cpu >>>>>machine run Crafty at 7M nodes per second. Not to DB's speed, but definitely >>>>>closer than 3 years ago. >>>>> >>>>>But to make statements such as fritz is much better is simply ridiculous until >>>>>Fritz manages to beat Kasparov in the match. Until it does, there is no >>>>>evidence to support this "superiority". If Fritz doesn't win (ie it loses or >>>>>draws) there is also no evidence to support this since DB actually _won_. >>>> >>>>Hi Bob, >>>> >>>>I am not sure much can be deduced by this match if fritz loses since I strongly >>>>believe fatigue is a variable in man vs machine and this match is made up of >>>>only 4 games whereas the DB was 6. To me it may be more conclusive if this was >>>>a similar 6 game format. If I can find the results it might be interesting to >>>>see how Kaspy has done if we look at his win/loss record of the first half of >>>>all his games played on this level and compare it to the last half record. Do >>>>you happen to have all the DB, Junior results? If so can you send them to me, I >>>>would be interested in them. >>>> >>>>Thx Bob, >>> >>>My only comment is that if Fritz wins, the debate can continue. If Fritz >>>loses, then the discussion is moot for the time being. Kasparov has, IMHO, >>>a significant disadvantage using the 3d stuff. I have used that stuff >>>myself and I would not want to do it for four hours. I notice he leaves >>>the "board" frequently, which probably helps a bit. But this is a flawed >>>idea, IMHO, as he should be playing on a real board. >>> >>>If Fritz still manages to lose, then comparing it to DB is difficult, since >>>DB won 7 years ago, on hardware 7 years older than today's. If Fritz wins, >>>then fritz and DB can be used in the same sentence with some sense. >> >>You forget that deeper blue had the advantage of not being a commercial program >>so Kasparov could not train at home against it to learn its weaknesses. >> >>Uri > > >I don't know that he can train against this version of DF either. Remember >that he _had_ played the previous version in 1996. This version that beat him >was put together right before the match so no practice would have been possible >had it been agreed to... It was possible by delaying the match. It is also clear that kasparov has at least the commercial fritz and it seems similiar to the real Fritz that is playing. Fritz8 likes Nxf2 exactly like the Fritz that was playing and people found that public Fritz8 can find the castling move that shredder does not like after enough time. Kasparov did not have deeper blue of few months before the match and he even did not have the version of 1996 to train against it. Uri
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