Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:16:20 12/08/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 08, 2003 at 16:09:20, Dieter Buerssner wrote: >On December 08, 2003 at 15:43:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On December 08, 2003 at 13:34:55, Dieter Buerssner wrote: >> >>>On December 07, 2003 at 20:31:50, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> > >>>>It is absolutely certain that Ke2 wins, any other first move draws. If white >>>>plays anything other than Ke2, then another wrong step can actually lose this. > >>As I said, I _believe_ it has been exhaustively proven that Ke2 >>wins, everything else draws. > >I fear, I didn't get it. Your sentence at the top seems to imply, that this is >totally out analyzed, and it is certain, that any other move than Ke2 will draw >(at most). The sentence above seems not so certain. That's from GM Larry Evans. He wrote an article on "The Little Game" (I believe that was the title) and discussed this. It is very similar to king and pawn vs king type analysis, the moves can be played with no thought, and there are plenty of ways to convert a win into a draw with one misstep. > >>You might ask someone on ICC with a >>very high "wild rating" about this game. There are several IM/GM >>players that play it perfectly and can tell you what is wrong >>about any move you play. > >I'd love to play it out with another move than Ke2. I am personally much too >weak, but I have some confidence in my engine and to its backward analysis >skills. So, I could only play with engine support (preferably at very long time >control), but manually operated. I just typed "best wild" at ICC. There seems no >IM/GM in the list: > >best wild > (Human only) >Wild >2287 tkc >2239 Tipau >2218 Wolfgang >2172 CHEssGUEVARA >2140 forevergm >2131 BullRook >2128 zebra3 >2100 shoehead >2083 Kueh >2079 ChampBlair >2066 Sicilian-GM1 >2048 natnee >2042 Baffler >2038 RootinTootin >2037 theconquerer >2035 ratty >2032 Aldos >2030 Kupnu4 >2028 SullenBishop >2011 Big-C >2004 WhollyCow >1989 manest > >Was this the wrong command? > >Thanks for your explanations (which I snipped). > >>For every black off-side move, white counters so that black gets zugged >>on the offside first, then gets zugged on the queenside next. As I said, >>it is a "nim-like" game with a finite solution that is pretty easy to see >>once you understand it. a4 certainly won't win. Ke1 won't either. > >Which move do you play after 1. a4 and which move do you play after 1. Ke1 as >black? I believe Ke7. I have not looked at it in multiple years now. Steve Lim and I tried to solve it with position learning, but it is way too complex for that to ever work. Steve posts here from time to time, he probably remembers the best wild7 players on ICC, he was much more into that than I was, I just got interested in trying to solve it with learning. I had crafty play millions of games at one second per move and it can see the win about 10 moves into the game, but the right things _never_ backed up so that it could see a win with Ke2. It learned to play Ke2 as the only non-drawing move, eventually, but it never saw all the right winning lines for every black plan... It's an amazingly complicated ending with some simple ideas to deal with. > >How about a little bet (not for money or anything, just out of curiosity). You >certainly know the right people to play this (perhaps you want to do it >yourself). I don't. Perhaps you could arrange a game on ICC (examine mode would >be perfectly ok, too). I would again set up my engine with lots of backward >analysis. So, in no means fair play from my side. But when there are players, >that play it perfectly (as you said), that should be no problem. OK. Let's get Steve in the loop so that he can point us to the right person... > >Regards, >Dieter
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