Author: Amir Ban
Date: 08:22:30 11/22/98
Go up one level in this thread
On November 22, 1998 at 10:52:01, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On November 22, 1998 at 03:03:26, Amir Ban wrote: > >>On November 22, 1998 at 02:31:47, blass uri wrote: >> >>> >>>On November 21, 1998 at 19:12:59, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On November 21, 1998 at 15:55:11, blass uri wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>On November 21, 1998 at 13:36:46, Bruce Moreland wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On November 21, 1998 at 13:03:07, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>I think their search is difficult to understand. IE I'll point back to the >>>>>>>position I posted last year on r.g.c.c about the c5 move in a game against >>>>>>>Cray Blitz, in Orlando at the 88 or 89 ACM event. They played c5 after >>>>>>>failing high to +2.x, the game went *10* full moves further before *we* >>>>>>>failed low to -2.x... I was looking right at their output and they had >>>>>>>this incredibly long PV showing that the bishop was going to be lost. They >>>>>>>saw it 20 full plies before we did. Lots of micros tried this position last >>>>>>>year, and almost all would play c5 (as we expected that reply ourselves in >>>>>>>the real game). But *none* had any clue that it was winning material.. even >>>>>>>when they went far into the variation... >>>>>> >>>>>>[Event "ACM 1991"] >>>>>>[Site ""] >>>>>>[Date ""] >>>>>>[Round ""] >>>>>>[White "Cray Blitz"] >>>>>>[WhiteElo ""] >>>>>>[Black "Deep Thought II"] >>>>>>[BlackElo ""] >>>>>>[Result "0-1"] >>>>>> >>>>>>1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. f4 e5 >>>>>>7. Nxc6 bxc6 8. fxe5 Ng4 9. Be2 Nxe5 10. Be3 Be7 11. O-O Be6 >>>>>>12. Qd4 O-O 13. Rad1 f6 14. b3 Qe8 15. Na4 Qg6 16. Bf4 Rf7 17. Qe3 >>>>>>Raf8 18. Qxa7 Qxe4 19. Bd3 Qb4 20. Qe3 Ra8 21. c3 Qb7 22. Rf2 >>>>>>Qa7 23. Qxa7 Rxa7 24. Be3 Ra5 25. Bb6 Ra8 26. Bc2 Bf8 27. Re1 >>>>>>c5 28. Be4 Ra6 29. Rb1 f5 30. Bc2 Rb7 31. Bd8 g6 32. Re1 c4 >>>>>>33. Rb1 Bd7 34. Nb2 Ra8 35. Bg5 Rxa2 36. b4 Bb5 37. Re2 Bg7 >>>>>>38. Nd1 Ra6 39. Bd2 Nd3 40. Ne3 Ra2 41. Bxd3 cxd3 42. Rf2 Rxd2 >>>>>>43. Rxd2 Bxc3 44. Nf1 Bxd2 45. Nxd2 Re7 46. Nf3 h6 47. Rb2 Re4 >>>>>>48. Kf2 g5 49. g3 f4 50. gxf4 Rxf4 51. Kg3 h5 52. Nd2 h4+ 53. Kg2 >>>>>>Bc6+ 54. Kg1 Rg4+ 55. Kf2 Rg2+ 56. Ke3 Bb5 57. Ra2 Rxh2 58. Ra5 >>>>>>Re2+ 59. Kd4 h3 60. Rxb5 Rg2 61. Rb8+ Kg7 62. Rb7+ Kg6 63. Rd7 0-1 >>>>>> >>>>>>r4bk1/5rpp/1Bppbp2/4n3/N7/1PP5/P1B2RPP/4R1K1 b - - 7 27 >>>>>> >>>>>>The goal is to search this position and achieve a score of approximately +2. It >>>>>>is possible to find the move for other reasons, perhaps a sniff of danger, but >>>>>>Bob says that Deep Thought saw to the end of this. >>>>> >>>>>I do not see something singular in this position >>>>>white can play many moves without being -2.xx and even without being-1.xx >>>> >>>> >>>>better look again. First, there is *definitely* something singular if black >>>>plays c5. White has to move the bishop. (remember it is black to move in >>>>the above game and has to find the move c5 with a score of +2.x for black). >>>>If you don't do something right *now* after c5, the bishop is trapped. But >>>>it is in fact *very* deep. Deep enough that CB didn't find it... >>> >>>I do not see how the bishop is trapped after other moves like 28.b4 and I see >>>nothing forced in the position(even at move 34 of the game Junior evaluates the >>>position as -0.xx with another move Rff1) >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>If there are singular extensions then there must be many extensions that begin >>>>>far from the root. >>>> >>>> >>>>as I said, perhaps you haven't read Hsu's paper on singular extensions and >>>>understand what this algorithm is. But from the initial position, if black >>>>plays c5, then white has to walk a tightrope to avoid immediately losing the >>>>bishop, and at the end it falls anyway... >>> >>>I do not see something singular for white. >>>Junior5 is going to play 29.h3 after 27...c5 28.Be4 Ra6 with evaluation of -0.24 >>>after an hour on pentium200MMX >>> >>>Genius3 also play 29.h3 after 1 hour and fifty minutes on pentium100 with >>>evaluation of -0.54 >>> >>>I see that white has many options not to lose the bishop so I do not understand >>>how singular extensions can help because I do not see one move that is clearly >>>better than the others >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>If I were white then I would play 28.b4(Junior5 changes its mind from Be4 to b4 >>>>>and now to Rd2 without a losing evaluation for white) >>>>> >>>>>I want to see a tree that prove Junior5 or Fritz5 that the evaluation of the >>>>>position is less than -1 (I mean the evaluation at the leaves after search at >>>>>tournament time control is less than -1, and the evaluation after every move >>>>>of white that go out of the tree is less than -1) >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>> >>>>I'm not sure what you mean "I want to see a tree ..."... I *saw* the output, >>>>I was on the *wrong* end of all this... I saw their score, I watched our score, >>>>thinking their score was the result of a bug. It wasn't... >>>It may be because of a different evaluation function or because of a bug >>> >>>I do not believe that it is because of a tree before I see a part of the tree >>>that convince my Junior5 that black has more than a pawn advantage. >>> >>>I mean that in every leaf of the tree the evaluation(after search of 3 minutes) >>>is more than a pawn advantage for black and white cannot do a move to get out of >>>the tree with better evaluation. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>Are there examples of singular extension moves by Deep Thought/Deep Blue that >>are more obvious than this one ? >> >>Amir > > >Another good one, although I can't tell you where the thing starts, is the >game *socrates vs Deep Blue Prototype at Cape May new jersey, 1994. The >critical point starts with both programs castling on the queenside if I >recall, and DB prototype initiating a pawn advance on that side. If someone >has the game, or can find it, I might be able to find where the fireworks >started, or I'll ask Hsu as he probably remembers. But this was another of >those very deep combinations.. At the point where it happened *none* of us >(including an IM and a bunch of good chess players) understood it until about >20 plies had unfolded and suddenly Mike Valvo says "oho! look here, at the >end of this, *this* happens and this is crushing for black"... > >As I recall, this was more obvious once the punch line was found because it >was a long sequence that was pretty forced by both sides, once it was started... > >anybody have the last ACM games? [Event "24th ACM Computer Chess Championship"] [Site "Cape May, NJ USA"] [Date "1994.06.25"] [Round "1"] [White "Deep Thought II"] [Black "Zarkov"] [Result "1-0"] 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5 Nf6 6. d4 d6 7. Nd3 Nxe4 8. Bxf4 Bg7 9. c3 O-O 10. Nd2 Re8 11. Nxe4 Rxe4+ 12. Be2 Qe8 13. Kd2 h5 14. Re1 c5 15. dxc5 dxc5 16. g3 Na6 17. Bf1 Bf5 18. Qb3 Qc6 19. Rxe4 Bxe4 20. Nf2 Rd8+ 21. Ke1 Bd5 22. Qb5 Qe6+ 23. Qe2 Qd7 24. Rd1 Re8 25. Ne4 Qa4 26. Rxd5 Rxe4 27. Rd8+ Kh7 28. Be3 Bh6 29. b3 Qc6 30. Bg2 Rxe3 31. Bxc6 bxc6 32. Rd7 c4 33. b4 Kg7 34. Kf2 Rxe2+ 35. Kxe2 c5 36. b5 Nb4 37. cxb4 cxb4 38. Rxa7 b3 39. axb3 cxb3 40. Ra3 Kg6 41. b6 1-0 [Event "24th ACM Computer Chess Championship"] [Site "Cape May, NJ USA"] [Date "1994.06.26"] [Round "3"] [White "Deep Thought II"] [Black "W Chess"] [Result "1-0"] 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. e3 Nc6 3. d4 e6 4. c4 d5 5. Be2 Be7 6. Nc3 O-O 7. O-O Bd7 8. Bd2 dxc4 9. Bxc4 Bd6 10. Rc1 e5 11. d5 Ne7 12. e4 b5 13. Bd3 b4 14. Na4 c6 15. dxc6 Bxc6 16. Bg5 Bxe4 17. Bxf6 Bxd3 18. Qxd3 gxf6 19. Rcd1 Bc7 20. Qa6 Qe8 21. Nc5 Qc6 22. Qxc6 Nxc6 23. Nd7 Rfd8 24. Nxf6+ Kh8 25. Rc1 Rd6 26. Ne4 Rh6 27. Rc4 Rb8 28. Rd1 Kg8 29. Neg5 b3 30. a3 Rc8 31. Rd7 Rd6 32. Rxd6 Bxd6 33. Ne4 Bxa3 34. bxa3 b2 35. Nfd2 Rd8 36. g4 Rd4 37. Rxc6 Rxe4 38. Rc8+ Kg7 39. Rb8 Rxg4+ 40. Kf1 b1=Q+ 41. Rxb1 Ra4 42. Rb3 Kf6 43. Rh3 Ke6 44. Rxh7 Rxa3 45. Rh6+ Ke7 46. Nc4 Ra1+ 47. Kg2 f6 48. Ne3 Kf7 49. h4 Kg7 50. Nf5+ Kf7 51. h5 Ke6 52. Ng3 Ra4 53. Rh7 f5 54. Rh6+ Kf7 55. Nxf5 Rg4+ 56. Kh3 Rf4 57. Nd6+ Ke7 58. Kg3 a5 59. Nc8+ Kf8 60. Ra6 Kg7 61. Rxa5 Rf5 62. Kg4 Rxf2 63. Rxe5 Rg2+ 64. Kh3 Ra2 65. Nd6 Kf6 66. Rc5 Ra6 67. Rf5+ Ke6 68. Rg5 Ra3+ 69. Rg3 Ra1 70. Rg6+ Ke7 71. h6 Rd1 72. Kg2 Rd5 73. h7 Rh5 74. Nf5+ Kf7 75. Nh6+ Kxg6 76. h8=Q Rxh6 77. Qf8 Kg5 78. Kg3 Rf6 79. Qd8 Kh5 80. Qd5+ Kg6 81. Kg4 Kg7 82. Qd7+ Rf7 83. Qd8 Rf1 84. Qd4+ Kh6 85. Qe3+ Kg7 86. Kg5 Rf7 87. Qc3+ Kf8 88. Kg6 Rd7 89. Qe5 Rd1 90. Kf6 Rf1+ 91. Ke6 Kg8 1-0 [Event "24th ACM Computer Chess Championship"] [Site "Cape May, NJ USA"] [Date "1994.06.26"] [Round "4"] [White "Star Socrates"] [Black "Deep Thought II"] [Result "0-1"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nge2 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 d6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O h6 9. Bf4 Bd7 10. Nxc6 Bxc6 11. f3 d5 12. Qe1 Bb4 13. a3 Ba5 14. Bd2 O-O 15. exd5 exd5 16. Bd3 Re8 17. Qh4 d4 18. Na2 Bxd2+ 19. Rxd2 a5 20. Bc4 b5 21. Rxd4 Qe7 22. Bf1 Qe3+ 23. Rd2 b4 24. Qd4 bxa3 25. Qxe3 axb2+ 26. Kxb2 Rxe3 27. Rd6 Rb8+ 28. Kc1 Ra3 29. Rxc6 Rxa2 30. g3 Ra1+ 31. Kd2 a4 32. Bg2 Rd8+ 33. Ke2 Rxh1 34. Bxh1 Ra8 35. Rb6 Nd5 36. Rd6 Nc3+ 37. Kd3 a3 38. Kxc3 a2 39. Rd1 a1=Q+ 40. Rxa1 Rxa1 41. Bg2 Rg1 42. Bh3 Rh1 43. Bc8 Rxh2 44. g4 Rf2 45. Bb7 g6 46. Kd3 h5 47. gxh5 gxh5 48. Be4 h4 49. Ke3 Rg2 50. Bf5 Rg5 51. Bh3 Rg3 52. Bf1 h3 53. Kf2 h2 54. Bg2 Rg7 55. f4 f5 56. Kf3 Kf7 57. Kf2 Rg4 58. Kf3 Ke7 59. Kf2 Rg8 60. Kf1 Kd6 61. Kf2 0-1 [Event "24th ACM Computer Chess Championship"] [Site "Cape May, NJ USA"] [Date "1994.06.27"] [Round "5"] [White "M-Chess Pro"] [Black "Deep Thought II"] [Result "0-1"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Nb5 d6 6. N1c3 a6 7. Na3 b5 8. Nd5 Nce7 9. c4 Nxd5 10. exd5 bxc4 11. Nxc4 Nf6 12. Be3 Rb8 13. a4 Be7 14. Be2 O-O 15. O-O Bf5 16. f4 Be4 17. fxe5 Nxd5 18. Qd4 Nxe3 19. Nxe3 d5 20. Bxa6 Rb4 21. Qa7 Rxb2 22. Qd4 Qb8 23. Bb5 Rb4 24. Qd2 Qxe5 25. Ng4 Qh5 26. h3 Bc5+ 27. Kh2 Bd6+ 28. Kg1 Rb3 29. Be2 Bc5+ 30. Kh2 Qh4 31. Rf3 Bxf3 32. Bxf3 h5 33. Qxd5 hxg4 34. Qxb3 Bd6+ 35. Kg1 gxf3 0-1 Amir
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.