Author: James T. Walker
Date: 13:18:21 12/18/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 18, 2003 at 16:07:44, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On December 18, 2003 at 15:53:02, James T. Walker wrote: > >>On December 17, 2003 at 13:20:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On December 17, 2003 at 13:09:57, Slater Wold wrote: >>> >>>>On December 17, 2003 at 10:41:24, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 10:23:26, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 10:21:58, Slater Wold wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 09:35:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 09:05:55, Slater Wold wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I guess I will be running the 100:1 NPS challenge. Here's the info: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I will use any books.bin & bookc.bin that Bob asks me to. The book.bin will be >>>>>>>>>created from enormous.pgn. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>My suggestion is to use book.bin, bookc.bin and books.bin from my ftp >>>>>>>>machine. book.bin has no learning data so it will start off in the best >>>>>>>>possible way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>remove position.bin before game 1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And, as I suggested previously, if, after a program leaves book, it is >>>>>>>>in an obviously won or lost position, the game gets aborted and the next >>>>>>>>one started. There is no place for "book kills" when the goal is a time >>>>>>>>handicap match. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Agreed. The only loss Crafty has suffered in the Rebel match was a book loss. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>BTW, what were the results of that match? >>>>> >>>>>3.5-1.5 for crafty >>>>> >>>>>see http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?336433 >>>>> >>>>>Note that the match is not very interesting for me because it is an open >>>>>question if Crafty is better than rebel on equal hardware and in WBEC Crafty has >>>>>13/24 when Rebel has only 10/24 >>>> >>>>There is no doubt in my mind Rebel is better than Crafty on equal hardware. And >>>>I've played, oh, about 5,000 games with Rebel. >>> >>>I would take that wager. We _both_ use quad opterons. >>> >>>:) >>> >>>Isn't that "equal" by any reasonable definition? :) >>> >>> >>>> >>>>How much better is questionable, but it's obviously not 8x. ;) >>>> >>>>>The more interesting question is if Rebel is able to get better result than >>>>>Crafty in the premier division. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >> >>;) They are not running on "equal" hardware if one is using 4 cpus and the >>other is using only one cpu. I have several hundred blitz games of Crafty 19.7 >>vs Rebel 12 on 2 XP2400+ machines/auto232. I call that equal hardware. In that >>case Rebel has a slight advantage on Crafty of maybe 30-40 Elo. (According to >>the few hundred games so far). >>Jim > > >That is a bad definition of "equal hardware". IE if two programs run on a >PIV 3.06ghz processor, but one uses SSE and the other doesn't, is _that_ >also not equal? Or one uses hyper-threading and the other doesn't? > >"equal hardware" means "platforms are identical". What a program gets out >of those equal platforms is another matter. > >It takes effort to use that "extra stuff". I played a couple of challenge >matches years ago when someone would say "Hey, you are using a Cray, if I >had something that fast, I could play equal to or better than you." I had >them send me their code, I compiled and we played on the same machine, no >pondering, one cpu each. What they overlooked was that I had invested a >lot of work getting the vector hardware to help me. They hadn't. So on >"equal hardware" I was 20x faster than they were and the match was not >that pretty. > >Doing a parallel search takes time. Does it seem reasonable that my opponent >uses an extra year to improve his evaluation, while I use an extra year to get >a good parallel search done, then we say "your parallel search is an unfair >adevantage?" > >It's a different way of thinking about it when you think about it. Those >extra CPUs don't just magically make the program faster without a _lot_ of >design effort and programming work. :) There is no denying that you have put in a lot of work on Crafty. I and many others really appreciate what you have done. That still does not make 1=4. I wish I had a quad or even a dual to run the "deep" programs on but I don't. Maybe when the price comes down a little I can get something not quite on the leading edge that I can afford. In the mean time, for me, 1=1 and 4 is 4x larger than 1. :) I said a few years ago that Crafty was showing the way for others to go in chess because I believed that CPUs have a practical upper limit of Ghz. So eventually all will have to go to multiple cpu operation for more speed. Again I salute your work but it does not make 1=4. :) Happy Hollidays, Jim
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