Author: Mark Young
Date: 08:20:02 01/19/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 19, 2004 at 10:44:24, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>On January 19, 2004 at 10:14:43, Mark Young wrote:
>
>>On January 19, 2004 at 09:54:57, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>
>>>On January 19, 2004 at 09:02:05, Mark Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 19, 2004 at 04:07:06, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A played a match of 22 games between Shredder 8 and Fritz 5.32 with the
>>>>>following results
>>>>>
>>>>> Time control: 15' Ponder=off Powerbook2004 with maximun variety of play,
>>>>>learn=off, Hash=64 mb
>>>>>
>>>>> I know these are too little games to extract any conclusion, but i think this
>>>>>must have some meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>PABLO-ILFE1CXZX, Blitz:15' 0
>>>>>
>>>>> 1234567890123456789012
>>>>>1 Shredder 8 11111½½1111½111½1111½1 19.5/22 +17/-0/=5 88.64% +356 elo dif
>>>>>2 Fritz 5.32 00000½½0000½000½0000½0 2.5/22 +0/-17/=5 11.36%
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, i was feeling some curiosity about the result of a match like this would
>>>>>be and that's why i did it. I remember back in 1999 Fritz 5.32 played in
>>>>>Hannover 2 games against Kasparov with 15' each, and tie the match with 2 draws.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not difficult to guess that, given the above result, Shredder 8 is much
>>>>>stronger than Kasparov himself at 15' blitz. If Shredder 8 is able to score 99%
>>>>>against most of humans, i don't think it finds much trouble getting 80%, maybe
>>>>>more against a supergm (+2700 fide elo) at this time control. What do you think
>>>>>about this?
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course, here are the games
>>>>
>>>>Computer programs are stronger then any human at fast time controls. We have
>>>>many results on ICC to back up this claim. I have seen very strong GM Players
>>>>lose 10 or 20 or more games in a row to programs like Shredder, Hiarcs,
>>>>Crafty... It is rare to see a draw, and even more so to see the human win. I
>>>>can't remember seeing a GM win on ICC, when I have been watching in a very long
>>>>time.
>>>
>>>Have those GM someting to lose if they play computers on ICC?
>>>Is that really serious?
>>>
>>>I don't think so.
>>
>>This is not a valid argument. Many play on ICC and I don't know of one who plays
>>to lose.
>
>Obviusly they play there for amusement.
>Most of them play like they would play against a strong human GM and not against
>a computer program.
>
>>
>>This argument has been seen before to justify computers only winning games
>>because the GM's had nothing to play for money wise. This argument has been show
>>to be false, GM's still don't win matches playing computers even when they are
>>"really serious".
>
>Some could win matches against computers.
This argument is bankrupt....the point is no super GM has won a money match
against a computer since Kasparov 1995. 9 years ago.
could of...would of....should of....
>
>I also watched a few of these games (trial account) half a year ago. I decided
>against joining ICC cause you waste a lot of time there without any real chance
>to improve your own chess.
>
>I saved two games Kamsky-Shredder.
>That's how to play a Computer in Blitz:
>
>[Event "ICC 5 3"]
>[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
>[Date "2003.07.28"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Udav"]
>[Black "RebelRex"]
>[Result "1-0"]
>[ECO "D02"]
>[WhiteElo "3220"]
>[BlackElo "3391"]
>[PlyCount "133"]
>[EventDate "2003.??.??"]
>[TimeControl "300+3"]
>
>1. d4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Bf4 Nf6 4. e3 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. Nbd2 Qb6 7. Qb3 Qxb3 8.
>axb3 Bd7 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. b4 Bb6 11. h3 O-O 12. Be2 a6 13. O-O Rac8 14. Rfd1
>Na7 15. Nd4 Rfe8 16. N2f3 Bxd4 17. exd4 Bb5 18. Re1 Bxe2 19. Rxe2 Nc6 20. Ne1
>h6 21. Nd3 Nd7 22. g4 g5 23. Bg3 Ne7 24. f3 Kg7 25. h4 Ng6 26. h5 Ne7 27. Kg2
>Nc6 28. Kh3 Rg8 29. Rf1 b6 30. Bd6 Nf6 31. Bh2 Nd7 32. Bd6 Nf6 33. Ra1 a5 34.
>b5 Na7 35. Be5 Nxb5 36. f4 Nxc3 37. bxc3 Rxc3 38. Rd2 gxf4 39. Rf1 Kh7 40. Bxf6
>b5 41. Rxf4 Ra8 42. Kh4 Ra7 43. Be5 Ra3 44. Nc5 Ra1 45. Rdf2 Rh1+ 46. Kg3 Kg8
>47. Rf6 Rg1+ 48. Kh3 Rh1+ 49. Kg2 Re1 50. Nd3 Re4 51. Rxh6 Rxg4+ 52. Kh3 f6 53.
>Bxf6 Rgg7 54. Bxg7 Kxg7 55. Rxe6 Kh7 56. Ne5 Rg7 57. h6 Rb7 58. Rf7+ Rxf7 59.
>Nxf7 Kg8 60. Ng5 Kf8 61. Re5 a4 62. Rxd5 b4 63. Rb5 Ke7 64. Rxb4 Kf6 65. Kg4
>Ke7 66. Kf5 a3 67. Ra4 {Black resigns} 1-0
>
>[Event "ICC 5 3"]
>[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
>[Date "2003.07.28"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Udav"]
>[Black "RebelRex"]
>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>[ECO "D02"]
>[WhiteElo "3202"]
>[BlackElo "3409"]
>[PlyCount "299"]
>[EventDate "2003.??.??"]
>[TimeControl "300+3"]
>
>1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bf4 Bf5 4. e3 e6 5. Nbd2 Bd6 6. Bxd6 Qxd6 7. c4 O-O 8.
>Qb3 b6 9. Be2 c5 10. Qa3 Bg4 11. O-O Nbd7 12. Rfd1 Rfe8 13. h3 Bh5 14. Rac1
>Rac8 15. cxd5 exd5 16. dxc5 bxc5 17. Nd4 Qb6 18. N4f3 Rb8 19. b3 Rbd8 20. Re1
>Bg6 21. Nh4 Be4 22. Nxe4 Nxe4 23. Nf3 Ndf6 24. Bd3 a5 25. Rc2 Qb4 26. Qc1 a4
>27. Bxe4 Nxe4 28. Nd2 axb3 29. axb3 Nd6 30. Rd1 Rc8 31. Qb2 Qb7 32. Rdc1 Qb6
>33. Rd1 Nb5 34. Nf3 Rcd8 35. Qc1 d4 36. Rxc5 Nc3 37. Rxc3 dxc3 38. Rxd8 Rxd8
>39. Qxc3 Rd1+ 40. Kh2 Qb8+ 41. Qe5 Qxe5+ 42. Nxe5 Rd2 43. Kg3 Rb2 44. h4 Rxb3
>45. Nf3 Rb2 46. Nd4 h5 47. Kf3 g6 48. Ne2 Kf8 49. Nf4 Ke7 50. Nh3 Kd6 51. Nf4
>Rc2 52. g3 Ra2 53. Nh3 Ke5 54. Nf4 Rd2 55. Nh3 Rd3 56. Nf4 Rd2 57. Nh3 Rd6 58.
>Nf4 Rd1 59. Nh3 Rd3 60. Ke2 Rc3 61. Kf3 Rb3 62. Nf4 Kf5 63. Ne2 Rd3 64. Nd4+
>Ke5 65. Ne2 Ra3 66. Nf4 Kf5 67. Nh3 Rb3 68. Nf4 Ra3 69. Nh3 Ra4 70. Nf4 Rb4 71.
>Nh3 Ra4 72. Nf4 Rb4 73. Nh3 Rb3 74. Nf4 Rc3 75. Nh3 Ra3 76. Nf4 Ra4 77. Nh3 Ke5
>78. Nf4 Kf5 79. Nh3 Rb4 80. Nf4 Rb3 81. Nh3 Ke5 82. Nf4 Rb1 83. Nh3 Ra1 84. Nf4
>Rd1 85. Ke2 Ra1 86. Kf3 Rb1 87. Nh3 Rb2 88. Nf4 Kd6 89. Nh3 Kd5 90. Nf4+ Kd6
>91. Nh3 Ra2 92. Nf4 Rc2 93. Nh3 Rb2 94. Nf4 Rc2 95. Nh3 Ra2 96. Nf4 Ra1 97. Ke2
>Ra3 98. Kf3 Ke5 99. Nh3 f5 100. Nf4 Kf6 101. Nd5+ Ke5 102. Nf4 Kf6 103. Nh3 Ra4
>104. Kg2 Ra6 105. Kf3 Ra5 106. Kg2 Ra6 107. Kf3 Ra4 108. Kg2 Ke7 109. Kf3 Ke6
>110. Kg2 Ra2 111. Kf3 Ke5 112. Nf4 Kf6 113. Nh3 Ke5 114. Nf4 Kf6 115. Nd5+ Kf7
>116. Nf4 Rc2 117. Nh3 Kf6 118. Kg2 Rc6 119. Kf3 Ra6 120. Kg2 Ra4 121. Ng5 Rc4
>122. Kf3 Rc2 123. Kg2 Rd2 124. Kf3 Rb2 125. Kg2 Rc2 126. Kf3 Ra2 127. Nh3 Ra6
>128. Ng5 Ra4 129. Nh3 Rc4 130. Ng5 Rc2 131. Nh3 Rc5 132. Kg2 Rc2 133. Kf3 Rb2
>134. Kg2 Rb1 135. Kf3 Rc1 136. Kg2 Ra1 137. Kf3 Rb1 138. Kg2 Rb8 139. Kf3 Rb4
>140. Kg2 Rb1 141. Kf3 Rb2 142. Kg2 Rb7 143. Kf3 Rb5 144. Kg2 Ke6 145. Kf3 Kf7
>146. Nf4 Rb6 147. Kg2 Rb1 148. Kf3 Rb8 149. Kg2 Rb2 150. Kf3 {
>Game drawn by the 50 move rule} 1/2-1/2
>
>Unfortunately it is boring.
>
>Michael
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Michael
>>>
>>>>This is not to hard to understand. Super GM's have only been able to draw their
>>>>matches to programs at standard time controls. ( Fritz, Junior, Hiarcs)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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