Author: David Dory
Date: 14:38:22 02/13/04
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On February 13, 2004 at 15:49:02, Uri Blass wrote: >On February 13, 2004 at 14:19:32, Steven Edwards wrote: > >>A brief comparison of the two knowledge based chess programs implemented in >>Lisp: Paradise and Symbolic: >> >>Author (Paradise) David Wilkins of Sunny California. >>Author (Symbolic) S. J. Edwards of Frozen New England. >> >>Date (Paradise) operational in 1979. >>Date (Symbolic) begun in 2003, planned completion in late 2004. >> >>Implementation language (Paradise) MacLisp from MIT >>Implementation language (Symbolic) ANSI C++ for the underlying chess toolkit >>package, ASNI C++ for the ChessLisp (by Edwards) interpreter, and ChessLisp for >>the knowledge based chess program itself. ChessLisp is a comprehensive subset >>of Common Lisp with the addition of chess specific support. >> >>Implementation hardware (Paradise) Digital pdp10 (36 bits, Multics OS) >>Implementation hardware (Symbolic) Any 32 or 64 bit platform supporting ANSI C++ >>and POSIX; currently using a mixture of Apple Macintoshes (OS X/OpenBSD), a 400 >>MHz AMD K6 (Linux), and a dual 1.13 GHz Intel P3 (Linux). >> >>Data structure primitives (Paradise) Lisp atoms and lists. >>Data structure primitives (Symbolic) Lisp atoms and lists. ChessLisp has more >>than a hundred primitive chess specific operations that access chess specific >>structure types for atoms; these types include moves, boards, bitboards, >>bitboard databases, positions, trees, and nodes. About a dozen chess specific >>enumeration types (including squares, pieces, and directions) also have built in >>support. >> >>Data structure operations (Paradise) MacLisp operations. >>Data structure operations (Symbolic) ChessLisp operations. Computationally >>expensive operations on chess structures are performed by the chess toolkit >>routines as activated by the ChessLisp implementation of chess specific >>operations like Generate, Execute, Retract, and ExpandNode. >> >>Property list usage (Paradise) The usual Lisp property list usage. >>Property list usage (Symbolic) The usual Lisp property list usage. Various >>chess specific structure types have extensive property lists initialized by >>access to the underlying toolkit. >> >>Domain (Paradise) Any chess position with emphasis on complex tactical >>middlegame positions. >>Domain (Symbolic) Any chess position; support included for an opening book and >>for tablebases. >> >>Search rate (Paradise) Highly variable, approximate mean of 20 seconds per node. >>Search rate (Symbolic) Too early to tell. Simple movepath enumeration run from >>ChessLisp is about 100,000 nodes per second on a 1 GHz PowerPC Macintosh. >>Knowledge based search will be much, much slower; the target rate is 20 (yes, >>only 20) nodes per second. > >1)I do not understand this target. > >This may be a result of implementing knowledge but the target should be >implementing knowledge and not searching less nodes per second. > >2)I know nothing about paradise. >I do not know about a single game that paradise played. > >If it was not developed to play games then what was the target of paradise? >I also guess that 20 seconds per node was in old hardware of 1980 and today it >should be clearly faster. > >Uri Uri, Paradise is where the 72 virgins await the faithful, but the body has died, so lots of fun may be missed! :) Seriously, Paradise was a knowledge-based (rather than a search based) chess program. It made it's own plans and goals, as it worked thru the game, as well as using a little bit of search. There is a chapter on it in Peter Frey's excellent classic "Chess Skill in Man and Machine". Paradise was quite slow in terms of nodes/sec., but could correctly solve a high percentage of Win At Chess, by using it's plans, not a fast searcher, but it was designed to work from production rules to create goals (like a knight outpost), etc.. It was especially effective in sharp, tactical middlegame positions. Unfortunately, trying to extend the program to play the whole game well, took a tremendous effort, and Paradise never achieved that lofty goal, despite it's accomplishments. I'm sure Steven will show us how well Symbolic can play, on today's MUCH better hardware. Go Steven!! David
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