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Subject: Re: Comparison: Paradise and Symbolic

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 12:49:02 02/13/04

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On February 13, 2004 at 14:19:32, Steven Edwards wrote:

>A brief comparison of the two knowledge based chess programs implemented in
>Lisp: Paradise and Symbolic:
>
>Author (Paradise) David Wilkins of Sunny California.
>Author (Symbolic) S. J. Edwards of Frozen New England.
>
>Date (Paradise) operational in 1979.
>Date (Symbolic) begun in 2003, planned completion in late 2004.
>
>Implementation language (Paradise) MacLisp from MIT
>Implementation language (Symbolic) ANSI C++ for the underlying chess toolkit
>package, ASNI C++ for the ChessLisp (by Edwards) interpreter, and ChessLisp for
>the knowledge based chess program itself.  ChessLisp is a comprehensive subset
>of Common Lisp with the addition of chess specific support.
>
>Implementation hardware (Paradise) Digital pdp10 (36 bits, Multics OS)
>Implementation hardware (Symbolic) Any 32 or 64 bit platform supporting ANSI C++
>and POSIX; currently using a mixture of Apple Macintoshes (OS X/OpenBSD), a 400
>MHz AMD K6 (Linux), and a dual 1.13 GHz Intel P3 (Linux).
>
>Data structure primitives (Paradise) Lisp atoms and lists.
>Data structure primitives (Symbolic) Lisp atoms and lists.  ChessLisp has more
>than a hundred primitive chess specific operations that access chess specific
>structure types for atoms; these types include moves, boards, bitboards,
>bitboard databases, positions, trees, and nodes.  About a dozen chess specific
>enumeration types (including squares, pieces, and directions) also have built in
>support.
>
>Data structure operations (Paradise) MacLisp operations.
>Data structure operations (Symbolic) ChessLisp operations.  Computationally
>expensive operations on chess structures are performed by the chess toolkit
>routines as activated by the ChessLisp implementation of chess specific
>operations like Generate, Execute, Retract, and ExpandNode.
>
>Property list usage (Paradise) The usual Lisp property list usage.
>Property list usage (Symbolic) The usual Lisp property list usage.  Various
>chess specific structure types have extensive property lists initialized by
>access to the underlying toolkit.
>
>Domain (Paradise) Any chess position with emphasis on complex tactical
>middlegame positions.
>Domain (Symbolic) Any chess position; support included for an opening book and
>for tablebases.
>
>Search rate (Paradise) Highly variable, approximate mean of 20 seconds per node.
>Search rate (Symbolic) Too early to tell.  Simple movepath enumeration run from
>ChessLisp is about 100,000 nodes per second on a 1 GHz PowerPC Macintosh.
>Knowledge based search will be much, much slower; the target rate is 20 (yes,
>only 20) nodes per second.

1)I do not understand this target.

This may be a result of implementing knowledge but the target should be
implementing knowledge and not searching less nodes per second.

2)I know nothing about paradise.
I do not know about a single game that paradise played.

If it was not developed to play games then what was the target of paradise?
I also guess that 20 seconds per node was in old hardware of 1980 and today it
should be clearly faster.

Uri



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