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Subject: Re: move ordering and node count

Author: martin fierz

Date: 12:22:50 03/29/04

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On March 29, 2004 at 14:30:17, Dieter Buerssner wrote:

>On March 29, 2004 at 10:17:18, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>aloha!
>>
>>i was discussing this somewhere in a thread, but thought i'd like to make this
>>question more visible in the hope of getting a good answer:
>>
>>everybody knows that with plain alpha-beta, a fixed number of moves N per node,
>>and perfect move ordering a search to depth D needs
>>
>>nodes(depth) = sqrt(N)^(D/2) nodes.
>>
>>with absolutely imperfect move ordering it needs
>>
>>nodes(depth) = N^(D) nodes.
>
>This has not so much to do with your question, but I doubt the last part of your
>sentence. I believe, it will be impossible to become as bad as the minimax tree,
>even when by purporse ordering the moves "perfectly wrong". You will still have
>plenty of situations, where many different moves give a cutoff. In a previous
>experiment, I got 50% beta cutoffs for the first move, when randomizing the move
>order. Note that this is far away, from a minimax tree (where you would need
>100% beta cutoffs in the last tried moves - there are in general many more move,
>you try before).
>
>Regards,
>Dieter

hi dieter,

hmm, everybody writes this that making A/B MO as bad as possible you return to
minimax. somewhere below gerd just made the same point as you did here. and if
two experienced programmers like you say so, i am of course afraid to contradict
you :-)
but i have to contradict you all the same. in a perfectly misordered tree you
will *never* fail high. which also means that the case that you and gerd were
thinking of never happens.

cheers
  martin



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