Author: Tony Werten
Date: 05:37:34 04/27/04
Go up one level in this thread
On April 27, 2004 at 03:33:26, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>About double nullmove: I tested this in some pawnendgames to see if it could
>handle zuzwang problems, but I don't see it perform any better than normal
>nullmove. Can Vincent or you post a position where double null outperforms
>normal null? I agree the idea is elegant, but I just don't see it work.
I switch it off in pawns only endgames. Couldn't figure out why it wasn't doing
as well as it sounded.
Tony
>
>Bas.
>
>
>
>
>On April 26, 2004 at 15:04:32, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On April 26, 2004 at 14:05:14, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On April 26, 2004 at 13:51:03, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 11:50:18, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 06:31:58, Tord Romstad wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>I wonder how you came to your conclusion.
>>>>>
>>>>>I did more experiments and concluded that always nullmoving saves most time.
>>>>>Double nullmove is just performing slightly worse (less than a percent in search
>>>>>time) and not missing zugzwangs, so i use it for that reason.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is one of those rare occasions where I agree with Vincent.
>>>>
>>>>Several years ago Bruce Moreland and I were talking, about this very subject. I
>>>>was explaining how I did it in Cray Blitz (and also in Crafty). I classified a
>>>>node as "ALL", "CUT" or "PV" according to Marsland/Schaeffer terminology, and if
>>>>the node was classified as PV I avoided doing the null-search at all.
>>>>
>>>>Bruce did some testing and doing this restriction actually slowed him down a
>>>>bit. So we both set about testing this stuff extensively and we came to the
>>>>conclusion that null-move is best used _everywhere_ because we don't have
>>>>perfect ordering and node classification is not that accurate as a result. The
>>>>only reason for avoiding a null is:
>>>>
>>>>(1) you are in some sort of zugzwang position where a null-move will fail high
>>>>for the wrong reason and wreck the search. Classic examples here are positions
>>>>with very few pieces. IE pawns vs a knight where the knight can be zugged.
>>>>Most require some minimal amount of material on the board to avoid this problem.
>>>>
>>>>(2) there is a tactical issue that is hidden with the R reduction. IE the
>>>>classic position with white pawns at f2, g3 and h2, black queen at h3 and black
>>>>pawn or bishop at f3, threatening mate on the move. If the R reduction prevents
>>>>you from seeing the mate, you can have problems.
>>>>
>>>>(3) The hash table proves that the null-move search will not fail high, meaning
>>>>that the search will be wasted effort.
>>>>
>>>>(4) Obvious positions such as when the side on move is in check. Not moving
>>>>can't fail high here as the king is lost.
>>>>
>>>>(5) I don't allow two consecutive nulls. It is a potentially cute way of
>>>>eliminating zugzwang problems, but it is only good for that, and it is not free
>>>>in positions where no zugzwang is possible. I choose to not deal with it
>>>>although I have this on my "to do" list to test with (say) pawn-only endings.
>>>
>>>Not allowing 2 consecutive nulls will for sure not find zugzwang problems.
>>>
>>>Not allowing 3 consecutive nulls will however find many zugzwang problems. As
>>>pointed out hashtable could do difficult, but that very seldom happens.
>>>
>>>Double nullmove does allow 2 consecutive nulls but not a 3d. So for a correct
>>>implementation you just need 1 'if then else' to also not allow null in a
>>>transposition table cutoff. This is very trivial to do.
>>
>>That is exactly what I was talking about. More than 2 can't ever be good. In
>>middlegame positions, I believe that 2 in a row introduces unnecessary overhead.
>> In endgame it might be worthwhile.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>In short, try null everywhere. But, as always, test, test, test. Theory says
>>>>that doing null on a PV node is a waste. Practice says that not all PV nodes
>>>>are really PV nodes after the search has started... Go with practice. :)
>>>
>>>I'm using PVS in its pure implementation, so i start with window [-inf;inf]
>>>i also disallow nullmove when beta == inf.
>>>
>>>That's trivial stuff however.
>>>
>>>All other 'pv nodes' doing a nullmove is very good for different reasons. Even
>>>when it gets a nullmove. double nullmove has a bit of a IID effect.
>>>
>>>>>Your results give IMHO only the indication that your qsearch needs to be fixed
>>>>>and/or that you did your experiments at a too fast time control where tactics
>>>>>dominate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Last week, there was an interesting discussion on this forum about which
>>>>>>criterions should be used to decide whether or not to do a null move search.
>>>>>>In an attempt to find out what works best for my engine, I played a self-play
>>>>>>tournament between four slightly different versions of my engine. The
>>>>>>following pseudo-code explains the null-move criterions used by each of
>>>>>>the four versions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>/* Gothmog A: */
>>>>>>int ok_to_do_nullmove() {
>>>>>> if(in_check(SideToMove)) return 0;
>>>>>> if(static_eval - value_of_biggest_hanging_piece(SideToMove) >= beta)
>>>>>> return 1;
>>>>>> return 0;
>>>>>>}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>/* Gothmog B: */
>>>>>>int ok_to_do_nullmove() {
>>>>>> if(in_check(SideToMove)) return 0;
>>>>>> if(static_eval - value_of_biggest_hanging_piece(SideToMove)
>>>>>> + value_of_biggest_hanging_piece(Opponent) >= beta)
>>>>>> return 1;
>>>>>> return 0;
>>>>>>}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>/* Gothmog C: */
>>>>>>int ok_to_do_nullmove() {
>>>>>> if(in_check(SideToMove)) return 0;
>>>>>> else return 1;
>>>>>>}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gothmog D is similar to Gothmog C, except that when the remaining depth
>>>>>>is 4 plies or more, a null move search with the depth reduced to zero
>>>>>>is done before the real null move search, and the real null move search
>>>>>>is avoided if the zero-depth search fails low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The criterion in Gothmog A is the one I have always used in the public
>>>>>>versions of Gothmog. Our discussion last week seemed to indicate that
>>>>>>most others use the simpler criterion in Gothmog C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In my tournament, I all four versions face each other 50 times. The
>>>>>>results:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gothmog A Gothmog B Gothmog C Gothmog D Sum
>>>>>>Gothmog A XXXX 26.5 31.0 29.5 87.0/150
>>>>>>Gothmog B 23.5 XXXX 30.5 26.0 80.0/150
>>>>>>Gothmog C 19.0 19.5 XXXX 31.5 70.0/150
>>>>>>Gothmog D 20.5 24.0 18.5 XXXX 63.0/150
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is interesting that the version with the most restrictive criterion
>>>>>>achieves the highest score. This confirms my growing suspicion that
>>>>>>recursive null move pruning doesn't work nearly as well as most people
>>>>>>believe, and that it might be a good idea to make an effort to reduce
>>>>>>its use as much as possible. I will try to experiment with even more
>>>>>>restrictive criterions (perhaps static_eval-biggest_hanging >= beta+margin)
>>>>>>and see whether that improves the strength further.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The number of games is of course still not sufficiently big to make any
>>>>>>definitive conclusions. If I find the time, I will add more games and
>>>>>>more versions to the tournament.
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tord
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