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Subject: Re: When to do a null move search - an experiment

Author: Dann Corbit

Date: 14:10:16 04/27/04

Go up one level in this thread


On April 27, 2004 at 06:10:04, Vasik Rajlich wrote:

>On April 27, 2004 at 01:38:49, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On April 27, 2004 at 00:44:34, rasjid chan wrote:
>>
>>>On April 26, 2004 at 20:07:00, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 13:41:53, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 12:14:33, José Carlos wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 11:57:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 11:48:35, José Carlos wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 11:32:26, Tord Romstad wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On April 26, 2004 at 10:39:42, José Carlos wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  An interesting experiment, of course. But I think your conditions are rather
>>>>>>>>>>different from 'most' programs. I mean:
>>>>>>>>>>  - You allow any number of null moves in a row (most programs don't do even
>>>>>>>>>>two)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>This has no importance, I think.  My experience is that I almost always get the
>>>>>>>>>same score and PV when I enable/disable several null moves in a row, and that
>>>>>>>>>the difference in number of moves searched is *very* tiny.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  You're probably right, as you've tested and I speak from intuition, but at
>>>>>>>>first sight, it seems that the fact that you allow several null moves in a row
>>>>>>>>will increase your percentage of null-moves-tries/total-nodes-searched, and thus
>>>>>>>>that avoiding unnecessary null moves will be a good idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In *all* experiments i did with nullmove and a program not using *any* forward
>>>>>>>pruning other than nullmove, the best thing was to *always* nullmove.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Yes, that's what other programmers also said (including me) in the thread we
>>>>>>had last week. That's pretty intuitive. With not any other forward pruning (or
>>>>>>very little) but null move, the cost of not trying a null move that would have
>>>>>>produced a cutoff it terrible compared to the benefit of saving an useless null
>>>>>>move try. So avoid null move, in this case, must be only in a very few cases
>>>>>>where you're 99.99% certain you'll fail low... if any.
>>>>>
>>>>>99.99% means 1 in 10k nodes.
>>>>
>>>>No
>>>>
>>>>You can be 99.99% sure about fail low more often than 1 in 10k nodes.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So doing nullmove always is cheaper, because in a lot of cases
>>>>>transpositiontable is doing its good job and in other cases you search more than
>>>>>10k nodes which you avoid searching now.
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Gothmog is very different from that 'paradigm' (he does a lot of forward
>>>>>>prunning and applies many ideas he has commented here), hence it works pretty
>>>>>>well for him.
>>>>>
>>>>>I get impression evaluation function plays a major role in when something is
>>>>>useful or when it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>>Checks in qsearch is also a typical example of this.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Double nullmove i invented to proof nullmove gives the same results like a
>>>>>>>normal fullwidth search for depth n which i may pick, and i use it as it finds
>>>>>>>zugzwangs and i am sure that is very helpful, because the weakest chain counts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So double nullmove always completely outgunned doing a single nullmove then
>>>>>>>disallowing a nullmove and then allowing the next one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I tried double null move some time ago, and it didn't work for me. Probably I
>>>>>>did something wrong, but I recall an old post (see the archives) from C. Theron
>>>>>>where he gave some points why double null move should not work. I, myself,
>>>>>>didn't invest too much time though as I had much weaker points to fix in my
>>>>>>program before.
>>>>>
>>>>>Christophe didn't post it doesn't work AFAIK.
>>>>>
>>>>>Further i must remind you that majority of commercial programmers posting here
>>>>>is not busy letting you know what works for them or doesn't work for them.
>>>>>
>>>>>To quote Johan: "don't inform the amateurs".
>>>>
>>>>What reason do you have to tell other what works for you and what does not work
>>>>for you?
>>>>
>>>>You do not plan to inform the amateurs about better code for tablebases than the
>>>>nalimov tablebases so I do not see you as a person who try to help the amateurs.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I remember that Christophe also posted that evaluation function is not so
>>>>>important.
>>>>>
>>>>>His latest postings here made more sense however than the crap posted before
>>>>>that.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>I understand that you claim that basically Christophe's claim that most of the
>>>>improvement in tiger came from better search and not from better evaluation was
>>>>disinformation.
>>>
>>>Firstly there is not that BIG a stake for disinformation and posting
>>>here is also just normal human behaviour that does not require
>>>asking "....why do I post ? ". Then also ask why do I talk.
>>>
>>>I think Christophe was quite clear about the reasons why chess programming
>>>is NOT about evaluation(not dumb evaluation). After pawn structures, passed
>>>pawns etc, it is very difficult to try to improve on it. The curve for
>>>evaluation is logarithmic for elo-increase/code-increase + huge overhead,
>>>the very reverse of exponential.Search almost have no trend patterns and
>>>search improvements usually have no overhead, you just need to be smarter
>>>then the rest. Assume your opponent searches on average 3 plys ahead.
>>>How do you do a good evaluation that can see 3 plys ahead? Evaluation is horizon
>>>dumb.
>>>
>>>Rasjid
>>
>>I did not claim that christophe claimed wrong things.
>>It is Vincent who claimed it.
>>
>>I prefer not to talk about the top programs.
>>I can only say that it is clear for me that I can get much by search
>>improvements.
>>
>>Certainly searching 3 plies forward or doing something equivalent can help
>>significantly but the problem is how to do it.
>>If you are optimistic about doing it with no price by intelligent extensions and
>>reductions
>>and better order of moves then it is clear that going for search is the right
>>direction.
>>
>>If you are not optimistic even about getting something equivalent to 1 ply
>>forward then evaluation is the right direction.
>>
>>Uri
>
>I don't think you need objective answers to these questions.
>
>You just need a game plan.
>
>A plain, reasonably tuned eval combined with a state of the art selective search
>seems like a perfectly reasonable game plan to me.
>
>Ditto for plain search combined with a state-of-the art evaluation.

Bruce Moreland (who's program Ferret was at one time among the top two or three
in the world) found a great annoyance when as he improved his evaluation: he
discovered that he was then being outsearched.

I think the lesson is simple:
If your new smarter eval makes the program stronger, then keep the new
evaluation terms.  If not, rip them out.



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