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Subject: Re: Thinker 4.6b third after 1st round!

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 08:50:11 06/01/04

Go up one level in this thread


On June 01, 2004 at 04:10:01, Uri Blass wrote:

>On May 31, 2004 at 18:33:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On May 31, 2004 at 18:29:09, Matthias Gemuh wrote:
>>
>>>On May 31, 2004 at 15:08:51, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 31, 2004 at 13:41:39, Miroslav Nikolic wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hardware: PIII 800MHz, 256Mb RAM
>>>>>OS: Windows Xp
>>>>>GUI: Chessprogram8 (Fritz 8)
>>>>>Tournament: 10x8x40min, round robin, 8 rounds
>>>>>Time control: 40'/40, 40'/40 + 40' (rest)
>>>>>Hash: 32 MB
>>>>>Ponder: off
>>>>>Resign: on
>>>>>Tablebase: Nalimov 4-pieces
>>>>>TB Cache : 6 MB
>>>>>Book used: DeepFritz7.ctg for Deep Fritz, H8 for Hiarcs, Select.ctg (by me)
>>>>>for others
>>>>>Book learning: off
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Just a question:  Why would you want to turn off a part of a chess program that
>>>>is not easy to develop in the first place?  IE book learning is a part of many
>>>>engines.  Turning it off makes no sense to me... any more than turning off
>>>>passed pawn evaluation or selective search capabilities...
>
>I think that it is better if programmers enable also option to turn off passed
>pawns evaluation and other parameters.
>
>In the last version of movei that I still did not release the user can change
>the passed pawn evaluation by changing weights including disabling them if you
>change the relevant weights to 0.
>
>I will not be surprised if it is possible to find a better personality by
>changing weights.

In current crafty, you can change weights, or you can change each specific eval
term if you so choose.  But using the _Default_ book, which depends on learning
to cull bad lines, and then disabling learning makes no sense whatsoever...


>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Strange logic !
>>>How can one compare book learning with passed pawn evaluation or selective
>>>search ?
>>
>>Very simple.
>>
>>1.  I added passed pawn logic to address weaknesses that needed help, in
>>Crafty's particular playing style.
>>
>>2.  I _specifically_ designed the opening book around book learning.  I have
>>_no_ hand-tailored lines, my book is made by sucking in reams of PGN data and
>>then relying on learning to discover which lines are bad or unplayable.
>>
>>Is this hard to understand?  If I had a hand-customized book, I wouldn't care,
>>but I don't, and turning off the learning facility simply makes _zero_ sense...
>>
>>>To make sure that the outcome of a tournament does not depend on order
>>>of opponents, book learning has to be switched off.
>>
>>
>>That's nonsense.  Does a human have to do a "brain purge" between opponents?
>
>We cannot do it with humans but we can do it with engines and it makes better
>comparison.

How.  I have a bad line in my book.  Do I _really_ have to play it multiple
times against each opponent to make a better comparison?  Or do I have to take
the time to hand-edit each "learned result" I get so that the book will be as
good as possible???


>
>If you want to compare between different versions when the change is only in the>evaluation then learning add varaible that is not relevant and it is better to
>compare results when learning is off.
>

I don't see why.   It introduces random noise into an experiment, repeatedly,
when the program plays an opening it would normally have learned was bad...




>Uri



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