Author: Ingo Bauer
Date: 12:59:57 07/27/04
Go up one level in this thread
On July 27, 2004 at 15:50:32, Bryan Hofmann wrote: >On July 27, 2004 at 15:45:56, Ingo Bauer wrote: > >>On July 27, 2004 at 15:26:36, Bryan Hofmann wrote: >> >>>On July 27, 2004 at 14:57:02, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On July 27, 2004 at 13:32:54, Ingo Bauer wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hi >>>>> >>>>>>>Second round with Crafty having black just started and of course I deleted all >>>>>>>learning values from the previous round! >>>>>> >>>>>>Not sure for the reasoning for doing this. Humans are not allowed to learn >>>>>>anything when they play white and lose, so that they can use that information >>>>>>when playing black??? >>>>> >>>>>Of course I delete the learning for both engines!!! All I wanted to do is having >>>>>the same clean start for both engines. The engine that is having white would >>>>>have the possibility to learn something for its "black" game that the other >>>>>engine could not do when having black first. >>>> >>>>That logic is broken. If an engine plays black, it learns for "both sides". If >>>>an engine is white, the same thing holds. Disabling learning seems wrong, since >>>>it is a part of each engine, depending on how well it is implemented. Tuning >>>>bits of a program on or off on a whim seems somehow wrong unless the goal is >>>>_not_ to measure the strength of the entire "entity" but rather to measure the >>>>strength of a subset... >>>> >>>> >>>> (And, yes the black-first engine >>>>>could learn something for its white game, but who knows if that is identical?) >>>>> >>>>>>Why not just disable learning completely? >>>>> >>>>>Yep, you are right here. I could (and should) have done this. Have not thought >>>>>about it but do you think that deleting it after each round is doing any harm? I >>>>>am pretty sure that does not matter. I will do it for future games. >>>> >>>>For "Nunn matches" I don't think it matters since in theory, the same position >>>>will not be reached twice since each opening is different. >>>> >>>>However, the idea of keeping learning active makes sense since each program >>>>plays the same opening from both sides. What it learns from one side ought to >>>>influence it when it plays the other side, like a human... >>>> >>> >>>I'll add it does exactly that! Here is a small test I did with Crafty dealing >>>with the Learn off vs on. I ran a 5/2 match Crafty 19.15 vs Ruffian 1.0.5 using >>>the Nunn I & II openings and mirroring them so both engines played each opening >>>as White & Black. As you can see there is a 65 point difference in strength. >>>Since there were no books used in this match this represents the strength >>>difference of position learning only. >>> >>> >>>Crafty 19.15 Learn Off - Ruffian 1.0.5 : 17.5/60 9-34-17 >>>(==1=0000==000==00==110000000==010=1001010=01=00=0=0000=00100) >>>Elo : -154 >>>Margins : >>>68 % : (+ 47,- 33) -> [-187,-107] >>>95 % : (+ 90,- 70) -> [-224, -64] >>>99.7 % : (+131,-112) -> [-266, -23] >>> >>> >>>Crafty 19.15 Learn On - Ruffian 1.0.5 : 22.5/60 13-28-19 >>>(=0==0100==01==01==010=000000===101=011110=01==1=0=0000010000) >>>Elo : -89 >>>Margins : >>>68 % : (+ 39,- 37) -> [-126, -50] >>>95 % : (+ 76,- 78) -> [-166, -13] >>>99.7 % : (+113,-123) -> [-211, 24] >> >> >>Nice, What about a match with disabled learning for both engines now? That >>result in comparison with learning on for both would be intersting! Of course it >>is cheking how good the quality of lerning is but you are doing allready 60 >>games in comparison to my 40 the difference in learning capability is bigger. > >Ruffian 1.0.5 does not have position learning and neither engine had any books. Aha, thx. I do not doubt that there is a influence with learning, I doubt a BIG differnce if both engines are with or without (a half way proper implemented learning at least) when only played a few positions. Bye Ingo
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