Author: Vincent Lejeune
Date: 05:22:56 08/02/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 02, 2004 at 07:44:56, Dadi Jonsson wrote: >On August 02, 2004 at 07:22:16, Vincent Lejeune wrote: > >>On August 02, 2004 at 06:22:47, Dadi Jonsson wrote: >> >>>On August 01, 2004 at 17:41:38, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On August 01, 2004 at 08:21:11, martin fierz wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 31, 2004 at 21:03:11, Dan Ellwein wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 31, 2004 at 07:24:15, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>[d]3q3r/4b1k1/4P1p1/rpp2p1p/1nn2Q2/5N1P/P4PP1/RBB1R1K1 w >>>>>>>Another GM sac refuted by computers? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This position is from... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>GM Fischer - GM Leonid Stein >>>>>>>Interzonal, Sousse 1967 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>GM Fischer played the (so called) winning move Bxf5! Annotators claim GM Fischer >>>>>>>wins easily after Bxf5! gxf5 Qg3+ Kh7 Ng5+ Bxg5 Bxg5 Qe8(or Qd3). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For this reason GM Stein played Qf8? and lost...but Bxf5 gxf5! seems to more >>>>>>>then hold the position. Do any computers or humans disagree. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Example line. >>>>>>>Bxf5 gxf5! Qg3+ Kh7 Ng5+ Bxg5 Bxg5 Ra3!. >>>>>> >>>>>>here's the analysis after Ra3... >>>>>> >>>>>>P3/850 >>>>>> >>>>>>Time Depth Score Positions Moves >>>>>>4:12:43 2/14 2.36 1240838800 1.Bxf5 gxf5 2.Qg3+ Kh7 3.Bg5 Rg8 >>>>>> 4.Rad1 Qe8 5.Rd7 Rg7 6.Qf4 Nc6 >>>>>> 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxg6+ Kxg6 9.Bxe7 >>>>>> Nxe7 10.Ne5+ Nxe5 11.Rxe5 >>>>>>---- ---- ---- ---- ---- >>>>>>0:00 1/3 2.51 1803 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Qg7 7.Qxc5 >>>>>>0:00 1/4 2.32 4534 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.e7 Re8 >>>>>> 8.Rac1 Nd3 >>>>>>0:00 1/5 2.52 12963 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.Qxc5 Rg8 >>>>>> 8.g3 >>>>>>0:00 1/6 2.52 39803 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.Qxc5 Rg8 >>>>>> 8.g3 >>>>>>0:01 1/7 2.66 113304 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.Qxc5 Nd3 >>>>>> 8.Qxb5 Nxe1 9.Rxe1 >>>>>>0:04 1/8 2.81 409975 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.e7 Qf6 >>>>>> 8.Rad1 Qc6 9.Qd7 Qxd7 10.Rxd7 >>>>>>0:14 1/9 3.18 1257931 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Nac2 7.Bf6 Re8 >>>>>> 8.a3 Nxe1 9.Rxe1 Nd5 10.Bb2 Rc8 >>>>>>0:40 1/10 3.50 3408997 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4 >>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.e7 Re8 10.Re5 c3 11.Kf1 >>>>>> >>>>>>1:50 1/11 3.62 9678741 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4 >>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.Rc5 Re8 10.f4 Nd3 >>>>>> 11.f5+ Kf6 >>>>>>4:01 1/12 3.47 22030168 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4 >>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.g4 h4 10.Kf1 Nd3 11.Rf7 >>>>>> c3 >>>>>>11:23 1/13 3.33 63675821 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4 >>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.g4 hxg4 10.hxg4 Rd4 >>>>>> 11.Kf1 Rxg4 12.Rf7 c3 13.Ke2 >>>>>>30:38 2/14 3.27 173765145 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4 >>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.Re5 Re8 10.Kf1 Nd3 >>>>>> 11.Re4 Rc8 12.e7 Kf7 13.Rd1 >>>>>>1:19:29 3/15 3.35 457992923 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.e7 Re8 >>>>>> 8.Rad1 Nc6 9.Rd5 Nc2 10.Re6 N2d4 >>>>>> 11.Rxc6 Nxc6 12.Rxf5 c4 13.Rxh5+ >>>>>> Kg7 14.Rxb5 Rxe7 15.Kf1 >>>>>>Dan >>>>> >>>>>are you sure you analysed the right position? following up from the game, this >>>>>looks just fine for black after e.g. 8...Kg7 i don't see anything at all for >>>>>white. definitely nothing close to +3... >>>>> >>>>>cheers >>>>> martin >>>> >>>>I am sure he analyzed the right position. >>>>He simply use a personality of chessmaster that gives random number or something >>>>close to it as an evaluation only because it is sometimes good at test >>>>positions. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>Here is Shredder 8 analysis BEFORE ...Ra3. (Dual Opteron 248, 2GB, 512MB hash, >>>Chess Assistant 7.1). >>> >>>[+1.48] d=25 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.a3 Nxa3 10.e7 Qf7 11.Qxc5 Nac2 12.Qb6 Nxe1 13.Rxe1 Kg7 14.Qxb5 >>> Re8 15.Qxb4 Kh7 16.Qb5 Rb3 17.Qc6 Qg6 18.Qd5 Rb4 (19:32.51) >>> >>>[+1.49] d=24 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Rd4 >>> 9.Rxd4 cxd4 10.Qd1 Nc3 11.Qxd4 Ne4 12.Qd7+ Kg6 13.e7 Qc8 14.Qd4 >>> Qe8 15.f3 Nxg5 16.hxg5 Kh7 17.Re6 Qxe7 18.Rxe7+ Kg8 (12:53.30) >>> >>>[+0.75] d=24 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.a3 Nxa3 10.e7 Qc8 11.Qa1 Qc6 12.Qxh8+ Kxh8 13.e8Q+ Qxe8 >>> 14.Rxe8+ Kg7 15.Re7+ Kg6 16.Re6+ Kg7 17.Rde1 Rd7 18.Re7+ Rxe7 >>> (5:11.23) >>> >>>[+0.25] d=24 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.a3 Nxa3 10.e7 Qc8 11.Qa1 f4 12.Qf6 Re8 13.Bxf4 Rxd1 14.Rxd1 Qg4 >>> 15.Rd8 Qg8 16.Bg5 Rxd8 17.d8Q Qxg5 (3:38.24) >>> >>>[+0.00] d=23 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (2:26.25) >>> >>>[+0.00] d=22 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (1:31.41) >>> >>>[+0.00] d=21 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (0:47.06) >>> >>>[+0.00] d=20 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (0:34.56) >>> >>>[-0.01] d=19 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4 >>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (0:31.57) >>> >>>[+0.46] d=19 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Bf6 Qxf6 7.Qxf5+ Qxf5 8.Rec1 >>> Nxa2 9.Rd1 Qxe6 10.Rxa2 Rxa2 11.Rd7+ (0:08.45) >>> >>>[+0.96] d=19 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Bf6 Qxf6 7.Qxf5+ Qxf5 8.Rec1 >>> (0:07.46) >>> >>>[+1.21] d=18 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8 >>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 16.g4 Nc3 17.Rd8 (0:03.11) >>> >>>[+1.21] d=17 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8 >>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 16.g4 Nc3 17.Rd8 (0:01.40) >>> >>>[+1.23] d=16 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8 >>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 16.g4 Nc3 (0:00.55) >>> >>>[+1.33] d=15 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8 >>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.g4 Rxe1+ 16.Kg2 (0:00.36) >>> >>>[+1.33] d=15 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8 >>> 14.f4 Nxa2 15.Rxd3 Ng7 16.e8Q (0:00.32) >>> >>>[+1.08] d=14 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8 >>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 (0:00.24) >>> >>>[+1.23] d=14 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qxb4 Qxg5 13.g4 Rxd1 >>> 14.Rxd1 hxg4 15.Qe4+ Nxe4 (0:00.23) >>> >>>[+1.48] d=13 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5 >>> Rg8 9.e7 Rxd1 10.Rxd1 Nxa2 11.Rd8 Nc3 12.h4 Qb1+ 13.Kh2 Qe1 >>> 14.Qxb5 Nxb5 (0:00.20) >>> >>>[+1.82] d=13 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Kg6 7.e7 Qc6 8.Qxf5+ Kxf5 >>> 9.Rd5+ Nxd5 10.e8Q Rxe8 (0:00.19) >> >> >>as pointed in an other message, the start position of your analyse is not good, >>because white have better move before : >>Bxf5 gxf5! Qg3+ Kh7 Ng5+??? <- here's the blunder >>Bg5! is better and may be winning >> >>[d]3q3r/4b2k/4P3/rpp2pBp/1nn5/5NQP/P4PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 3 >>here white still winning, may be you can confirm this with your Dual Opteron 248 >>? > >I was aware of the strength of Bg5 as you can see in my first message to this >thread. However, Ng5 does not deserve three question marks as it still suffices >to keep the upper hand in the game. Since you asked, here is the analysis of >Shredder 8 (again Dual Opteron 248, 2GB, 512MB hash, Chess Assistant 7.1) after >1. Bxf5! (The best move!) gxf5? 2. Qg3+ Kh7 3. Bg5! > > [+3.08] d=20 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.Re5 Ra6 > 9.Rd7+ Kh6 10.Rxc5 Raxe6 11.a3 Nc6 12.Rc7 Ne5 13.Nd4 Nd3 >14.Nxe6 > Rxe6 (2:27.47) > > [+3.50] d=20 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.e7 Ra7 > 9.Ng5+ Kg7 10.Rg6+ Kxg6 11.Re6+ Kxg5 12.Rg6+ Kxg6 13.g4 Rxa2 > 14.gxf5+ Kxf5 15.Kg2 (2:12.51) > > [+3.85] d=20 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.e7 Ra7 > 9.Ng5+ Kg7 10.Rg6+ Kxg6 11.Re6+ Kxg5 12.Rg6+ Kxg6 13.a4 bxa4 > 14.f4 Rexe7 (2:10.09) > > [+3.86] d=20 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf3 Kg7 8.Nxh8 Nc2 > 9.Nf7 Nxe1 10.Rxe1 Qf6 11.Qxh5 Ra8 12.Qf3 Re8 13.Qg3+ Kf8 >14.Ng5 > Qe7 15.Qf4 Nd6 16.Qe5 Qxg5 (2:03.57) > > [+3.00] d=20 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf3 Kg7 8.Nxh8 Kxh8 > 9.Qxh5+ Kg7 10.Qxf5 Ra3 11.Red1 Ra5 12.Rd7 Kg8 13.Rxe7 Kh8 >14.Qxc5 > Kg8 (1:31.26) > > [+2.50] d=20 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf3 Kg7 8.Nxh8 Kxh8 > 9.Qxh5+ Kg7 10.Qxf5 Ra3 11.Red1 Ra5 12.Rd7 Kg8 13.Rxe7 Kh8 >14.Qxc5 > Kg8 (1:29.23) > > [+2.25] d=19 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf4 Qf6 8.Nxh8 Re7 > 9.Nf7 Nc2 10.Qf3 Nxe1 11.Rxe1 Kg7 12.Qg3+ Qg6 13.Ng5 Kg8 >14.Qb8+ > Qe8 15.Qf4 (1:14.06) > > [+2.43] d=19 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf4 Qf6 8.Nxh8 Nd3 > 9.Qb8 Re7 10.Qg8+ Kxg8 11.Nf7 Nxe1 12.Rxe1 Rxe6 13.Nh6+ Qxh6 > 14.Rxe6 Qxe6 15.Kh2 (1:08.28) > > [+2.78] d=19 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf4 Qf6 8.Nxh8 Nd3 > 9.Qb8 Re7 10.Qg8+ Kxg8 11.Nf7 (1:07.13) > > [+2.79] d=19 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.e7 Ra7 > 9.Ng5+ Kg7 10.Rg6+ Kxg6 11.Re6+ Kxg5 12.Rg6+ Kxg6 13.a4 bxa4 > 14.f4 Rexe7 (1:03.25) > > [+2.79] d=19 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Qe8 5.Rd7 Rg7 6.Qc7 Na6 7.Qf4 Bd6 8.Qxf5+ Qg6 > 9.Qxg6+ Kxg6 10.Nh4+ Kh7 11.Bf6 Bf8 12.Bxg7 Bxg7 13.e7 Rxa2 >(0:34.15) > > [+2.29] d=19 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Qe8 5.Rd7 Rg7 6.Qc7 Na6 7.Qf4 Bd6 8.Qxf5+ Qg6 > 9.Qxg6+ Kxg6 10.Nh4+ Kh7 11.Bf6 Bf8 12.Bxg7 Bxg7 13.e7 Rxa2 >(0:31.21) Thanks ! In fact, surprisingly deep position ! Bg5 : +3.08 and Ng5 : +1.48 Now the ultimate question : How many time to find "Bxf5 !" ? [d]3q3r/4b1k1/4P1p1/rpp2p1p/1nn2Q2/5N1P/P4PP1/RBB1R1K1 w
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