Author: Wayne Lowrance
Date: 14:58:36 08/07/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 07, 2004 at 17:07:59, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 07, 2004 at 16:49:52, Robin Smith wrote: > >>On August 07, 2004 at 14:20:19, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 07, 2004 at 14:03:52, Rob Basham wrote: >>> >>>>On August 07, 2004 at 11:17:59, David Dahlem wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 07, 2004 at 08:51:51, Thomas Lagershausen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>[D]3r2rk/3n1pp1/2p1b2p/3q3P/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB4RR w - - 0 29 >>>>>> >>>>>>In this speedchessgame in round two of the fide-wcc 2004 the IM Neelotpal >>>>>>(2457)found with 29.Rg1-g6 !! with the thread to sacrifice the rook on h6 the >>>>>>strongest move to show that white is not(!) worse in this position. >>>>>> >>>>>>I bet that every computer of the world wouldn´t have found this in a compareable Someone, please describe a "fortress" tku Wayne >>>>>>time. >>>>>> >>>>>>So this is a lesson in tactics where computers can learn form human players. >>>>>> >>>>>>Do you agree? >>>>>> >>>>>>TL >>>>> >>>>>Forcing this idea with these moves: >>>>> >>>>>29.Rg6 fxg6 30.hxg6 Rge8 31.Rxh6+ Kg8 32.Rh7 >>>>> >>>>>We get this position: >>>>> >>>>>[D]3rr1k1/3n2pR/2p1b1P1/3q4/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB6 b - - 2 32 >>>>> >>>>>Shredder 8 UCI1: >>>>> 1 00:00 -1.77 32. ... bxc3 >>>>> 2 00:00 -1.93 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 >>>>> 2- 00:00 -1.94 32. ... Nf8 33.Qg4 Bxg4 >>>>> 2 00:00 -2.21 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 >>>>> 3 00:00 -2.21 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 >>>>> 4- 00:00 -2.46 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 34.cxb4 Nxf4 >>>>> 4- 00:00 -2.96 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 34.Ng5 Nxf4 >>>>> 4 00:00 -3.24 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh2 Nxg6 34.Qc7 bxc3 >>>>> 5+ 00:00 -2.96 32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Nd7 35.Rg7+ Kh8 >>>>> 5+ 00:00 -2.30 32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Qxd4 35.cxd4 Nxh7 >>>>> 5 00:00 8.70 32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Qxa2+ 35.Bxa2 Nxh7 36.Bxe6+ >>>>>Rxe6 37.Qxe6+ Kg7 38.gxh7 bxc3 39.bxc3 >>>>> 5- 00:00 8.69 32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Rxg8+ Kxg8 >>>>> 5- 00:00 8.34 32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Rxg8+ Kxg8 >>>>> 5 00:00 -1.08 32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Qh7 Qd5 36.cxb4 >>>>> 5- 00:00 -1.09 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Rh8+ Kxh8 35.Qh4+ Kg8 36.Qh8+ >>>>>Kxh8 >>>>> 5- 00:00 -1.44 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Rh8+ Kxh8 35.Qh4+ Kg8 36.Qh8+ >>>>>Kxh8 >>>>> 5 00:00 -2.64 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Ne4 Qxd4 36.Rh8+ Bg8 >>>>>37.Qh7 >>>>> 5- 00:00 -2.65 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Kf8 36.Nxc3 Qxf3 >>>>>37.Qe7+ Kxe7 >>>>> 5 00:00 -2.82 32. ... a3 33.bxa3 Nf8 34.Rh4 Nxg6 >>>>> 6+ 00:00 -2.57 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Kf8 36.Qf4+ Nf6 >>>>>37.Nxf6 Qf5 38.Bxf5 >>>>> 6+ 00:00 -2.07 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Qxa2+ 36.Bxa2 c2 >>>>>37.Bxe6+ Kf8 38.Bxd7 >>>>> 6 00:00 -1.98 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Qxf5 Qxd4 >>>>> 7+ 00:01 -1.73 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Qxf5 Qxf5 39.Rxf5 >>>>> 7 00:01 -1.49 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Nxf6 gxf6 39.Bxf5 Qxd4 >>>>> 8 00:02 -1.63 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 Qxd4 38.Qxf5+ Nf6 39.Rh8+ Ke7 40.Rh4 >>>>> 9+ 00:04 -1.38 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Qg8 39.Rxg8+ Ke7 40.Nxf5+ Ke6 41.Bxc2 >>>>> 9 00:06 -1.30 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Ke7 39.Nxf5+ Qxf5 40.Qxf5 cxb1Q+ 41.Kxb1 Rxh8 >>>>>10 00:13 -1.19 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+ >>>>>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Ke7 39.Nxf5+ Qxf5 40.Qxf5 cxb1Q+ 41.Kxb1 Rb8+ 42.Kc2 Rxh8 >>>>>11+ 00:23 -0.94 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7 >>>>>37.Qh4+ Ke6 38.Ng5+ Kd6 39.Qf4+ Ke7 40.Rxe8+ Kxe8 41.Qxf5 bxc3+ >>>>>11+ 00:32 -0.44 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Rxg7 bxc3+ 36.Ka1 Bg4 >>>>>37.Qh8+ Qg8 38.Rxg8+ Ke7 >>>>>11 01:03 3.24 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.bxc3 Bg8 36.Rh7 Bxh7 >>>>>37.Qh6+ Ke7 38.Qxh7+ Qf7 39.gxf7 Rg8 >>>>>11- 01:05 3.23 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 Bg8 36.Qh8 Nf6 >>>>>37.Rxg8+ Nxg8 38.g7+ >>>>>11- 01:06 2.88 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 a3 36.Qh8+ Bg8 >>>>>37.Rf7+ Qxf7 38.bxa3 Qxf3 39.g7+ Ke7 40.Nd5+ cxd5 41.Qh4+ Kd6 42.Qf4+ >>>>>11 01:08 2.75 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 a3 36.Qh8+ Bg8 >>>>>37.Rf7+ Qxf7 38.gxf7 axb2+ 39.Kxb2 Rb8+ 40.Kc2 Kxf7 41.Ne4 Ke6 42.Qh6+ >>>>>11- 01:10 2.74 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh2 Bxg6 34.Rh8+ Kf7 35.Nd6+ Ke7 36.Nxe8 Bxe8 >>>>>37.Qh4+ Nf6 38.Rh7 >>>>>11- 01:11 2.39 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh2 Bxg6 34.Rh8+ Kf7 35.Nd6+ Ke7 36.Nxe8 Bxe8 >>>>>37.Qh4+ Nf6 38.Rh7 Qxf3 >>>>>11 01:23 1.42 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 >>>>>11- 01:28 1.41 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Qf4+ Bf5 35.Qxf5+ Qxf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7 >>>>>37.Rxe8+ Rxe8 38.Nf6 >>>>>11- 01:28 1.06 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Qf4+ Bf5 35.Qxf5+ Qxf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7 >>>>>37.Rxe8+ Rxe8 38.Ng3 >>>>>11 01:32 1.06 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+ >>>>>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 >>>>>12+ 01:37 1.31 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+ >>>>>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 Rxb1+ 39.Kxb1 Rxb2+ >>>>>12+ 01:37 1.81 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+ >>>>>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 Rxb1+ 39.Kxb1 Rxb2+ >>>>>12 01:47 2.74 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 Kxg7 35.Qh7+ Kf8 36.g7+ Ke7 >>>>>37.g8Q+ Kd8 38.Qh4+ Kc7 39.Qgg3+ Kb6 40.Qhh2 Rec8 41.cxb4 Qxd4 42.Qd6 Qxd6 >>>>>43.Qxd6 >>>>>12- 01:54 2.73 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 >>>>>12- 01:57 2.38 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Qxf6 >>>>>12 02:05 1.40 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 Rxe8 39.Kb1 Re2 40.Qg5 Kf8 >>>>>13 02:37 1.28 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 Rxe8 39.Kb1 Re2 40.Qg5 Kf7 41.Kc1 >>>>> >>>>>Regards >>>>>Dave >>>> >>>>That's my point! Thanks for posting! >>>> >>>>If by move 32 white showed a plus 7.00 or 8.00 score, then I would say that >>>>29. Rg6 is OK....and worth trying! >>>> >>>>As we can now clearly see, Only a plus 1.28 is not winning for white! >>>> >>>>Rob >>> >>>It is not a winning score but it is clear that white win material. >>>White is also winning by Rg6 as the following tree shows. >>> >>>[Event "?"] >>>[Site "?"] >>>[Date "2004.08.07"] >>>[Round "?"] >>>[White "New game"] >>>[Black "?"] >>>[Result "1-0"] >>>[SetUp "1"] >>>[FEN "3r2rk/3n1pp1/2p1b2p/3q3P/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB4RR w - - 0 1"] >>>[PlyCount "20"] >>> >>>1. Rg6 fxg6 2. hxg6 Rge8 (2... h5 3. c4) 3. Rxh6+ Kg8 4. Rh7 Bf5 (4... a3 5. >>>Qh4 Kf8 6. Rxg7 axb2+ 7. Kxb2 bxc3+ 8. Kc1) (4... bxc3 5. Nxc3 Qc4 6. Qh4 Kf8 >>>7. Rxg7) (4... Re7 5. Qh4 Kf8 6. c4 Qxc4 7. Nd6) 5. Qh4 Bxg6 6. c4 Bxh7 7. cxd5 >>>Bxe4 (7... cxd5 8. Nd6 Bxb1 9. Nxe8 Rxe8 10. Kxb1) 8. Bxe4 Nf6 9. Bg6 cxd5 10. >>>Bxe8 Rxe8 1-0 >> >>Nice analysis Uri. Only one problem. How does White win in the final position of >>the main line, after 10...Rxe8? I think Black can set up a fairly easy fortress >>draw. I see no way for White to make progress in the queen versus rook and >>knight ending. Black will leave the knight on f6, and the king will go to h7, >>guarding the g-pawn while avoiding checks from the queenside. Black's king-side >>is totally secure. Black can then advance the b-pawn to b3, so that there is >>only one queenside pawn for Black to protect, which he can do with the rook, by >>shuffling between the squares b8, b7, b6 or b5. For example, in your main line >>after the additional moves: >>11.Kb1 b3 12.axb3 axb3 13.Qf2 Rb8 14.Qe1 Kh7 15.Qc3 Rb6 16.Kc1 Rb7 17.Kd2 Rb6 >>18.Qc5 Rb8 19.Qd6 Rb5 20.Kc3 Rb7 >>we get: >>[D]8/1r4pk/3Q1n2/3p4/3P4/1pK2P2/1P6/8 w - - 0 49 >> >>Here programs think white is winning, but their evals stay flat. Typical of >>fortress draw endings. >> >> >>-Robin > >You may be right and I did the mistake of believing that queen can beat rook and >knight when there are many pawns on the board and there were some unblocked >pawns in the position after 10...Rxe8 so I did not suspect a fortress. > >I need to believe in something because I cannot analyze till checkmate. >It may be better to check if there is a better alternative for white. > >Uri
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