Author: Uri Blass
Date: 00:57:30 09/25/04
Go up one level in this thread
On September 25, 2004 at 01:56:37, Sandro Necchi wrote: >On September 24, 2004 at 13:05:52, Sandro Necchi wrote: > >>On September 24, 2004 at 12:09:00, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >> >>>On September 23, 2004 at 13:31:55, Sandro Necchi wrote: >>> >>>>On September 23, 2004 at 01:44:08, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 23, 2004 at 01:31:37, Sandro Necchi wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 22, 2004 at 06:58:33, martin fierz wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 22, 2004 at 05:56:02, Vikrant Malvankar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It is not a benefit for a weak engine as it will also probably play weak moves >>>>>>>>in the middlegame which will be properly exploited by the stronger engine. Dont >>>>>>>>u think so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>it's not the issue whether a strong engine will beat a weak engine. that is so >>>>>>>by definition :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>the question is: take 2 engines of approximately equal playing strength, give >>>>>>>one of them a good book, and look what happens in a match. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>i believe that for 2 weak engines the difference will be larger in the match >>>>>>>result than for 2 strong engines. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>now we only need somebody to test this hypothesis :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>cheers >>>>>>> martin >>>>>> >>>>>>Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>I made very many tests and I can make statements on this matter: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. A program stronger 150 points than another will win nearly all games no >>>>>>matter how bad it comes out from the openings. >>>>>>2. The stronger the program is the most important the book is. Of course weak >>>>>>lines should be checked and removed to avoid loosing positions. >>>>>>3. The weaker the program is the less the book is important. The reason is that >>>>>>it will find very many positions where it does not know how to play them. >>>>>> >>>>>>P.N. Do not take the Shredder - Hydra example to state the opposite, because I >>>>>>knew we had some weak lines in the book, but for personal reasons could not work >>>>>>on them. >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course anybody can state the opposite, but my statements are supported by >>>>>>thousand of games and more than 100 engines/prototype testing at all level and >>>>>>with very many different harware. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have no time and williness to do deeper into these matters, so it is up to you >>>>>>to believe me or not. >>>>>> >>>>>>Sandro >>>>> >>>>>At the very weak level books are not important because the program that get >>>>>better position cannot use it. >>>>> >>>>>At the very high level books are also not important because the program can find >>>>>better moves by itself. >>>> >>>>No, this is today totally wrong in at least 95% cases. >>>> >>>>It depends on the positions, but in some positions they should search at 64/108 >>>>to be able to do it and I do not think any chess program is able to reach those >>>>depths now. >>>> >>>>I have made several tests running fast harware for more than one day and the >>>>moves and the evaluation they got was poor compared to real ones. >>> >>>Depends on what "real ones" means. Humans also make mistakes. >> >>Yes, but I was referring to deep analysis of a position, not games. Some times >>deep analysis takes days, months or even longer...otherwise is not deep...:-) > >An example: > >after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 can computers answer >these questions: > >1. Is this the best line for white? I guess that humans cannot answer better. >2. Is 2...d6 best move for black? Again I guess that humans cannot answer. Probably 2...d6 is one of some drawing moves but I cannot be sure about it. >3. Is this line best line for black? >4. What is white best move at move 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, >18, 19 and 20? >5. What are the best reply for black on those moves and the white best line? >6. How deep should a chess program need to search to give these answers? > >Uri, do you really think a chess program can give better answers (moves) than a >strong human player? I do not know. I think that in most cases they will give moves with the same quality. In some cases espacially in moves 11-20 they may give better moves if you give them a long time to analyze. Uri
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