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Subject: Re: Can White pieces win in this endgame ???

Author: chandler yergin

Date: 16:36:12 01/11/05

Go up one level in this thread


On January 11, 2005 at 01:58:47, Eugene Nalimov wrote:

>On January 11, 2005 at 00:50:47, Helmut Conrady wrote:
>
>>On January 11, 2005 at 00:08:08, Eugene Nalimov wrote:
>>
>>>On January 10, 2005 at 21:50:43, Tanya Deborah wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 10, 2005 at 21:48:41, Tanya Deborah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi to all!
>>>>>
>>>>> I wish a very good year 2005 to all the people in this Forum.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at this position :
>>>>>
>>>>>  [D]1k6/1P5R/5r1P/3K4/8/8/8/8 b
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that all top programs give a very good advantage for white in this
>>>>>position (up to +5.00), but can white really win in this end game???  I am not
>>>>>very sure about this..  It seems to be a draw game.
>>>>>
>>>>>Why programs give it too much advantage???

Programs eval Material tooo highly!

New game,
[D]1k6/1P5R/5r1P/3K4/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Shredder 8:

1...Ka7
  +-  (5.18)   Depth: 1/1   00:00:02
1...Ka7
  +-  (5.18)   Depth: 1/1   00:00:02
1...Ka7
  +-  (5.18)   Depth: 1/1   00:00:02
1...Ka7
  +-  (5.18)   Depth: 1/1   00:00:02
1...Ka7 2.Ke5
  +-  (4.96)   Depth: 2/3   00:00:02
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6
  +-  (5.06)   Depth: 3/4   00:00:03
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6 3.Kd5
  +-  (4.86)   Depth: 4/7   00:00:03
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6 3.Kf5 Rb5+ 4.Ke6
  +-  (4.99)   Depth: 5/9   00:00:04
1...Ka7 2.Kc5 Rg6 3.Kd5 Rb6 4.Ke4 Rb3
  +-  (4.93)   Depth: 6/11   00:00:07
1...Ka7 2.Kc5 Rg6 3.Kd4 Rd6+ 4.Ke4 Re6+ 5.Kf5 Rd6 6.Ke4 Re6+ 7.Kf5 Rd6 8.Ke4
Re6+
  +-  (4.97)   Depth: 7/12   00:00:11  3kN, tb=279
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6 3.Kf5
  +-  (4.94)   Depth: 8/13   00:00:15  5kN, tb=435
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6 3.Kf5 Rc6 4.Ke4 Ra6 5.Kd4 Rc6 6.Ke4 Ra6 7.Kd4 Rc6 8.Ke4 Ra6
  +-  (4.93)   Depth: 9/17   00:00:22  9kN, tb=638
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6 3.Kf5 Rc6 4.Ke4 Ra6 5.Kd4 Rc6 6.Ke4 Ra6 7.Kd4 Rc6 8.Ke4 Ra6
  +-  (4.93)   Depth: 10/14   00:00:25  11kN, tb=764
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rb6 3.Kf5 Rc6 4.Ke4 Ra6 5.Kd4 Rc6 6.Kd5 Rb6 7.Kc5 Rf6 8.Kd5 Rb6
9.Kc5 Rf6 10.Kd5 Rb6 11.Kc5
  +-  (4.93)   Depth: 11/16   00:00:34  16kN, tb=1166
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rb5
  +-  (4.91)   Depth: 12/18   00:00:43  24kN, tb=1542
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5 Rb6
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 13/17   00:00:54  31kN, tb=2012
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 14/20   00:01:04  40kN, tb=2373
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 15/20   00:01:17  52kN, tb=2882
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 16/21   00:01:28  66kN, tb=3532
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 17/21   00:01:35  82kN, tb=4254
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 18/24   00:01:45  106kN, tb=5243
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 19/29   00:01:52  135kN, tb=6295
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 20/27   00:01:59  182kN, tb=8138
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 21/25   00:02:05  233kN, tb=9811
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 22/35   00:02:09  302kN, tb=11965
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 23/26   00:02:14  379kN, tb=14509
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 24/28   00:02:16  474kN, tb=17666
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 25/32   00:02:18  591kN, tb=21529
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 26/33   00:02:20  736kN, tb=26213
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 27/34   00:02:21  936kN, tb=32576
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 28/37   00:02:24  1208kN, tb=40807
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 29/32   00:02:27  1524kN, tb=50398
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 30/36   00:02:31  1950kN, tb=63398
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 31/38   00:02:35  2478kN, tb=79645
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 32/40   00:02:38  3121kN, tb=98596
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 33/44   00:02:42  3837kN, tb=121053
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 34/43   00:02:47  4838kN, tb=151098
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 35/42   00:02:52  5953kN, tb=184167
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 36/38   00:02:58  7387kN, tb=226684
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 37/42   00:03:07  9325kN, tb=286525
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 38/47   00:03:16  12532kN, tb=377309
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 39/50   00:03:26  15733kN, tb=467026
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 40/48   00:03:40  19865kN, tb=579941
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 41/50   00:03:54  24413kN, tb=712073
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 42/54   00:04:17  32755kN, tb=946955
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 43/61   00:05:00  51238kN, tb=1523847
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 44/51   00:05:39  67771kN, tb=2013107
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 45/50   00:07:45  137331kN, tb=4267055
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 46/60   01:41:03  3685355kN, tb=155091057
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 47/60   01:43:17  3760583kN, tb=157563578
1...Ka7 2.Ke5 Rc6 3.Kf5 Rc5+ 4.Ke4 Rc6 5.Ke5
  +-  (4.92)   Depth: 48/60   02:28:47  5545201kN, tb=231680809

(,  11.01.2005)

New game,
[D]1k6/7R/2r4P/4K3/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Shredder 8:

1. = (0.00): 1.Kd5
2. = (0.00): 1.Kd4
3. = (0.00): 1.Ke4
4. = (0.00): 1.Kf4
5. = (0.00): 1.Kf5
6. = (0.00): 1.Rg7
7. = (0.00): 1.Rf7
8. = (0.00): 1.Re7
9. = (0.00): 1.Rd7
10. = (0.00): 1.Rh8+
11. -+ (-#18): 1.Ra7
12. -+ (-#17): 1.Rc7
13. -+ (-#17): 1.Rb7+

(,  11.01.2005)

New game,
[D]2k5/7R/2r3KP/8/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Shredder 8:

1. = (0.00): 1.Kf5
2. = (0.00): 1.Kf7
3. = (0.00): 1.Kg5
4. = (0.00): 1.Kg7
5. = (0.00): 1.Kh5

(,  11.01.2005)


A.Williams@totalise.co.uk



>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>   I forgot to say, that black move in this position.
>>>
>>>That is draw regardless of side to move.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Eugene
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Best Regards
>>>>>  Tanya Deborah
>>
>>Hi Eugene!
>>
>>Can you tell us something about your development of current 6 men?
>
>3+3 and 4+2 without pawns are done long ago.
>
>I generated all 4+2 with pawns, and finished about half of 3+3 with pawns,
>including krpkrp and kqpkqp. 3+3 are slower to calculate, as there are less
>tables with identical pieces, locality is worse, and process stabilizes much
>slower. Not sure when I'll do the remaining ones.
>
>Thanks,
>Eugene
>
>>Helmut



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