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Subject: Re: Fruit 2 and endgame play

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 17:30:28 01/12/05

Go up one level in this thread


On January 12, 2005 at 20:23:57, Dann Corbit wrote:

>On January 12, 2005 at 19:40:26, chandler yergin wrote:
>
>>On January 12, 2005 at 18:55:04, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>
>>>On January 12, 2005 at 18:49:06, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 12, 2005 at 18:45:47, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 12, 2005 at 17:49:17, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 12, 2005 at 17:39:55, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On January 12, 2005 at 13:31:16, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On January 12, 2005 at 10:54:26, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On January 12, 2005 at 02:33:38, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In my (private) endgame testsuite Fruit scored better than some programs
>>>>>>>>>>with tablebase support (e.g. Junior8 and Crafty).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Quite stunning - it seems,
>>>>>>>>>>that excellent search depth compensates TBs!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your opinion.. Provide evidence!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And my suite has some 5/6 piece
>>>>>>>>>>positions were TB access is definitely advantage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>IMO the 5-piece tablebases are just not that interesting and really not worth
>>>>>>>>>that much in terms of elo.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What are the Current ELO Ratings for Top Programs, including yours?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>THey represents exact play, and all positions possible are immediatly shown.
>>>>>>>>What more can you expect?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A little endgame knowledge can cover most of the
>>>>>>>>>positions and be a lot faster too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Absolute NONSENSE!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not nonsense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In most of the position of 5 pieces or less than it computers can find the right
>>>>>>>move with no tablebases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Nonsense Uri!
>>>>>>They "May" find it... Ha Ha.. in how long!
>>>>>>Stop the Crap!
>>>>>
>>>>>Suppose that a tablebase takes 2 days to create today.
>>>>>Next year it will take one day to create it.
>>>>>The following year, it will take 12 hours.
>>>>>Year 3: 6 hours
>>>>>Year 4: 3 hours
>>>>>Year 5: 90 minutes
>>>>>Year 6: 45 minutes
>>>>>Year 7: 22.5 minutes
>>>>>Year 8: 11.25 minutes
>>>>>Year 9: 5.625 minutes
>>>>>Year 10: 2.8125 minutes
>>>>>Year 11: 1.40625 minutes
>>>>>Year 12: 42.1875 seconds
>>>>>Year 13: 21.09375 seconds
>>>>>Year 14: 10.546875 seconds
>>>>>Year 15: 5.2734375 seconds
>>>>>Year 16: 2.63671875 seconds
>>>>>Year 17: 1.318359375 seconds
>>>>>Year 18: 0.6591796875 of a second
>>>>>Year 19: 0.32958984375 of a second
>>>>>Year 20: 0.164794921875 of a second.
>>>>>
>>>>>What that means is that perfect information will be generated in a fraction of a
>>>>>second, if that is what is desired.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is a conservative estimate, since compute power seems to be growing
>>>>>superexponentially, rather than just exponentially.
>>>>
>>>>Key Word:
>>>>"Seems"
>>>>
>>>>There is a Practical Limit!
>>>>There is not enough time even to the end of the World to "Brute Force"
>>>>all possible combinations... Until you do, there is NO Proof of anything!
>>>>Now if you can't understand that.. I'm sorry!
>>>
>>>The computer does not have to calculate chess perfectly to the end.  It only has
>>>to outcalculate its opponent.
>>
>>Reminds me of the story wehn Einstein & Nils Bohr
>>were hiking in the woods...
>>They came accross a huge grizzly bear..
>>Nils bent down and started going through his backpack, pulled out , and started
>>putting on his Tennis shoes..
>>"VAT are you doing Nils?".. said Einstein,
>>"You can't outrun that Bear!"
>>
>>Nils replied.. "I only have to outrun YOU, Dr. Einstein!"
>>
>>
>>  Very soon, humans will have no chance against
>>>computers.
>>
>>The Opening Tree.. the Opening Book is a DataBase of Positions PLAYED!
>>
>>Humans determine Theory! Programs "Store & Retrieve" information..
>>
>>In a  Game of Human vs Computers...
>>Humans are playing what Top GM's have played before!
>>Computers have NO Intelligence! You know that!
>>ONLY when by "Advanced Chess...Humans USING Computers to advance Theory
>>will the ELO Rating of Humans & Computers advance..
>>Humans.. have to PLay the games FIRST!
>>NOW.. The Formula for ELO Ratings is such that for GM'S, they Win or Lose
>>very FEW POINTS for a loss among their Peers!
>>Therefore.. ELO Ratings will NOT JUMP! For either Humans OR Computers.
>
>Intelligence is not needed to play the game of chess.  Only compute power and
>storage.  It is just like any other game with a deterministic tree.
>
>It will be a few years longer until GO is solved, but in 20 years, the best GO
>players will also be slaughtered by a computer.

We do not know it.
We even do not know that chess will be solved and it is only a possibility

I also think that the difference between solving chess and solving go is big and
solving chess is clearly easier problem and machine that is 1000000 times faster
and have 1000000 time more memory than the machine that is needed to solve chess
will be unable to solve go.

Uri



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