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Subject: Re: Last Point.. Chess will NOT be 'solved' by Computers!

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 15:18:19 01/18/05

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On January 18, 2005 at 11:54:39, Uri Blass wrote:

>On January 18, 2005 at 11:25:26, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On January 18, 2005 at 10:36:20, chandler yergin wrote:
>>
>>>Only delusional people, disconnected from reality think it can.
>>>
>>>End of discussion!
>>>
>>>Anyone want to refute this?
>>>
>>>http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/chess1.htm
>>>
>>>In this tree, there are 20 possible moves for white. There are 20 * 20 = 400
>>>possible moves for black, depending on what white does. Then there are 400 * 20
>>>= 8,000 for white. Then there are 8,000 * 20 = 160,000 for black, and so on. If
>>>you were to fully develop the entire tree for all possible chess moves, the
>>>total number of board positions is about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
>>>000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
>>>000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
>>>000,000,000,000, or 10^120, give or take a few. That's a very big number. For
>>>example, there have only been 10^26 nanoseconds since the Big Bang. There are
>>>thought to be only 10^75 atoms in the entire universe. When you consider that
>>>the Milky Way galaxy contains billions of suns, and there are billions of
>>>galaxies, you can see that that's a whole lot of atoms.
>>
>>First, your numbers are wrong.  We can store a chess position in about 160 bits,
>>which means 2^160 positions total.  Way less than 10^120.  Second, nothing says
>>we can only store one piece of information per atom.  Thirdly, alpha/beta
>>doesn't require that we even search _every_ possible position, only about
>>sqrt(P) need be actually searched, which is 2^80 position.
>
>I disagree with the last point.
>
>By that logic you can solve KRB vs KR with no tablebases by only searching
>sqrt(P) nodes when P is the number of KRP vs KR position.
>
>Can you do it?
>
>I do not say that searching all positions is needed but I see no proof that sqrt
>is enough.
>
>Uri
>
>Uri

OK.  My math was wrong.  There is a difference in the number of positions that
can be produced and the number of positions that have to be searched.

But _whatever_ the number, it is finite because chess is finite.  And if the
size is finite, it can be searched in finite time, which means not "infinite"...





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