Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 08:51:00 05/27/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 27, 2005 at 11:33:10, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 27, 2005 at 10:51:54, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On May 26, 2005 at 22:14:43, Lar Mader wrote: >> >>>>> >>>>>I think that it is correct only if we have not the games >>>>>but based on analyzing the games deeper blue did blunders that even free >>>>>programs can avoid today at tournament time control on fast hardware. >>>>> >>>>>[D]R7/1r3kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/6K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>> >>>>>finding Kh1 and not Kf1 is easy for free programs like Fruit and Yace when >>>>>Deep Blue failed to find that move. >>>>> >>>>>I saw no impressive move in the games of deep blue against kasparov that top >>>>>programs need hours to find so I guess that the top programs of today are simply >>>>>better than Deep Blue. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>I need to correct it for yace >>>> >>>>Yace finds Kh1 but later changes it's mind to Kf1 >>>>I thought that it rejected Kf1 for the correct reason when it has in the pv Qe3 >>>>but later it changes it's mind and has in the pv Qxc6 and not Qe3. >>>> >>>>Fruit seems to have no problem with that position. >>>> >>>>New game, 40'/40 >>>>R7/1r3kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/6K1 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Yace 0.99.87: >>>> >>>>1.Qxb6 Rxb6 >>>> = (0.13) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kh2 Qxc6 2.dxc6 >>>> = (0.24) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 2 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 2 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>1.Qxb6 Rxb6 2.Ra7+ Bc7 3.Rxc7+ Kf8 >>>> ² (0.28) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>1.Qxb6 Rxb6 2.Ra7+ Be7 3.g3 >>>> ² (0.33) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>1.Qxb6 Rxb6 2.Ra7+ Be7 3.g3 >>>> ² (0.33) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>1.Qxb6 Rxb6 2.g3 h5 3.Ra7+ Be7 >>>> = (0.24) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Ke7 >>>> = (0.25) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rc7 3.g3 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rc7 3.g3 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Bc7 4.Rxc7+ Kf8 >>>> ² (0.67) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Be7 4.Bd5+ Ke8 5.c7 Rc8 >>>> ² (0.69) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Be7 4.Bd5+ Ke8 5.c7 Rc8 >>>> ² (0.69) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.Rd7 Be7 >>>> ± (0.72) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 21kN >>>>1.Kh2 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Be7 4.Bd5+ Ke8 5.c7 Rb6 6.c8Q+ Bd8 >>>> ± (0.73) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 37kN >>>>1.Kh2 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.Rd7 Be7 5.c7 Rc8 >>>> ± (0.81) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 40kN >>>>1.Kh2 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.Rd7 Be7 5.c7 Rc8 >>>> ± (0.81) Depth: 6/18 00:00:01 41kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.g3 Qf2+ 5.Bg2 Kh7 6.d6 >>>> ± (0.71) Depth: 7/18 00:00:01 120kN >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.Rd7 Kg8 >>>> ± (0.72) Depth: 7/18 00:00:01 133kN >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.Rd7 Be7 5.c7 Rc8 >>>> ± (0.85) Depth: 7/18 00:00:01 142kN >>>>1.Kf1 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rb8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.Rd7 Be7 5.c7 Rc8 >>>> ± (0.85) Depth: 7/20 00:00:01 185kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6+ Kh7 5.Qf7 Qe3 6.Qg6+ Kh8 >>>> ± (0.72) Depth: 8/21 00:00:01 261kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6+ Kh7 5.Qf7 Qe3 6.Qg6+ Kh8 >>>> ± (0.72) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 410kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7+ Kh7 5.Ke2 Rd8 6.Qg6+ Kg8 7.Rf7 >>>> ² (0.64) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 561kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Be7 4.Ra7 h5 5.Bd5+ Kf8 6.c7 Ra8 >>>> ² (0.65) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 907kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kg8 4.Ra7 Kh7 5.Rd7 Bf8 6.c7 Rc8 >>>> ± (0.71) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 970kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kg8 4.Ra7 Kh7 5.Rd7 Bf8 6.c7 Rc8 >>>> ± (0.71) Depth: 9/26 00:00:02 1113kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kg8 4.Ra7 Kh7 5.Rd7 Bf8 6.c7 Rc8 7.g3 >>>> ± (0.80) Depth: 10/26 00:00:02 1479kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 h5 5.Rd7 Be7 6.c7 Bd8 >>>> ± (0.81) Depth: 10/30 00:00:02 2318kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 >>>> ± (0.83) Depth: 10/30 00:00:02 2450kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 >>>> ± (0.83) Depth: 10/30 00:00:02 2670kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Bd5 Rb8 6.Rf7+ Ke8 7.Rxg7 Rd8 >>>> ± (1.03) Depth: 11/32 00:00:03 4174kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Bd5 Rb8 6.Rf7+ Ke8 7.Rxg7 Rd8 >>>> ± (1.03) Depth: 11/34 00:00:03 4975kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rb8 6.Rd7 Be7 7.c7 Kg8 >>>> ± (1.08) Depth: 12/41 00:00:07 10063kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rb8 6.Rd7 Be7 7.c7 Rb7 8.c8Q+ >>>>Kf7 >>>> ± (1.09) Depth: 12/41 00:00:08 10827kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Bb1 >>>> ± (1.11) Depth: 12/41 00:00:09 11882kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kg8 4.Ra7 Kh7 5.Rd7 Bf8 6.c7 Rb7 7.c8Q Kh8 >>>> ± (1.12) Depth: 12/41 00:00:11 14655kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kg8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rb8 6.Rd7 Rc8 7.Rxd6 Kh7 >>>> ± (1.14) Depth: 12/41 00:00:11 15138kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kg8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rb8 6.Rd7 Rc8 7.Rxd6 Kh7 >>>> ± (1.14) Depth: 12/41 00:00:11 15138kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.h4 Kg8 6.Rb7 Rb8 7.Rd7 >>>> ± (0.93) Depth: 13/45 00:00:15 20137kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rb8 6.Rd7 Rc8 7.Rxd6 Rc7 >>>> ± (0.94) Depth: 13/45 00:00:16 21682kN >>>>1.Kh2 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Ke8 6.Rxb5 Rc7 7.g3 h5 8.Ra5 >>>> +- (1.50) Depth: 13/46 00:00:23 30638kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rb8 6.Rd7 Rc8 7.Rxd6 h5 >>>> +- (1.51) Depth: 13/46 00:00:34 42727kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rc7 6.Rxb5 Ke8 7.g3 Bxb4 8.cxb4 >>>>Ke7 >>>> +- (1.53) Depth: 13/46 00:00:39 48302kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 Rc7 6.Rxb5 Ke8 7.g3 Bxb4 8.cxb4 >>>>Ke7 >>>> +- (1.53) Depth: 13/46 00:00:39 48546kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qe3 3.Qxd6 Re8 4.h4 Re7 5.Bf3 Qc1+ 6.Kf2 Qd2+ 7.Kg3 Qe1+ 8.Kh3 >>>>Qh1+ 9.Kg4 e4 10.Qf4 exf3 11.Qxf3 >>>> ± (1.31) Depth: 14/46 00:02:04 140058kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Kh2 h5 6.Rb7 Rb8 7.Rd7 Rc8 8.Rxd6 >>>>Kf7 >>>> ± (1.32) Depth: 14/54 00:02:36 175070kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 h5 6.Rxb5 Ke7 7.Ra5 Rc7 8.g4 h4 >>>> +- (1.45) Depth: 14/54 00:02:44 184404kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Rb7 h5 6.Rxb5 Ke7 7.Ra5 Rc7 8.g4 h4 >>>> +- (1.45) Depth: 14/54 00:02:44 184837kN >>>>1.Kh1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Rc8 4.Ra5 Ke8 5.Kh2 Bc7 6.Rxb5 Rb8 7.Rc5 g6 8.fxg6 >>>>Ke7 >>>> +- (1.48) Depth: 15/54 00:03:02 204824kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qe3 3.Qxd6 Re8 4.h4 Re7 5.Bf3 Qc1+ 6.Kf2 Qd2+ 7.Kg3 Qe1+ 8.Kg4 >>>>e4 9.Qd8 Rd7 10.Qxd7+ Kf8 >>>> +- (1.49) Depth: 15/59 00:04:09 277144kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qe3 3.Qxd6 Re8 4.h4 >>>> +- (1.49) Depth: 15/59 00:05:07 339937kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qe3 3.Qxd6 Re8 4.h4 >>>> +- (1.49) Depth: 15/59 00:05:44 380942kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Bd5 Rc7 6.Ra8+ Ke7 7.Rg8 h5 8.Rxg7+ >>>>Ke8 9.Rg8+ Bf8 10.Rh8 Rg7 11.Rxh5 Bxb4 12.cxb4 >>>> +- (1.81) Depth: 16/59 00:10:07 653799kN >>>>1.Kf1 Rb8 2.Ra6 Qxc6 3.dxc6 Kf8 4.Ra7 Rc8 5.Bd5 Rc7 6.Ra8+ Ke7 7.Rg8 h5 8.Rxg7+ >>>>Ke8 9.Rg8+ Bf8 10.Rh8 Rg7 11.Rxh5 Bxb4 12.cxb4 >>>> +- (1.81) Depth: 16/61 00:11:43 766649kN >>>> >>>>(, 26.05.2005) >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>> >>>Shredder 9 needs 10 mins 13 secs (on my P4 3.06 Ghz machine) to realize that Kh1 >>>is correct. But given how fast Deeper Blue was, this is still a pretty good >>>result: >> >>Deep Blue was not 'faster' when expressed in search depth. >> >>Deep Blue, as we can see in its logfiles searched 10-12 ply. In 1997 that was a >>very big search depth if you realize they didn't use nullmove and did do a huge >>search in hardware. >> >>If you would let the Deep Blue from back then play now, then it would be about >>2200-2300 rated now. > >I think that almost nobody except you believe in it. >I believe that deep Blue is weaker than the top programs of today but >even deep thought performed clearly better than 2200-2300. > >Human learned and improved but I do not believe that 2200-2300 of today are >stronger than 2500 of the time of deep thought. >Uri I really feel Diepeveen - Deep Blue would be an interesting match. I'm FM and 2280 rated now or something (to look up my latest rating look at the FIDE website). In those days i could destroy any program without problems. Most importantly because i did get a won position quickly after book and they played on real passively. Deep Blue is real passive program and it just had 4000 book moves. That's not even enough to cover the ECO codes, let alone start of mainlines. It will have to invent every book move itself based upon a random pgn book at most. That's *real ugly* weak against professional players. Let alone top-GM's. 2500 would be based upon picking a random GM. GM's are so much better used now to play fritz on their laptop. If you play a strong fritz at your laptop and then play a match against something from the far past which is passive and selfdestructive in pawn structure, then obviously Deep Blue rating is nowhere close to that of a GM rating. So the only question we can raise is whether it is 2200 or 2300. You will perhaps argue 2400. I argue against that. But the imagination of the spectator is that it was 2800 rated. Which is not true. We directly can already prove it's far below GM strength. Then all we have to do is find a 2200 player who is good in beating computers. I have one in my club. He plays 1.d4 with white and mainlines with black. against non 1.e4 openings he plays with black kings indian. Very good to kill computers with. Especially deep blue :)
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