Author: Mridul Muralidharan
Date: 01:00:22 05/30/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 29, 2005 at 19:09:14, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >On May 29, 2005 at 15:08:17, Mridul Muralidharan wrote: > >>On May 29, 2005 at 11:35:42, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >> >>>On May 29, 2005 at 08:25:02, Mridul Muralidharan wrote: >>> >>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:29:33, Günther Simon wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:20:00, Vladimir Elin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Hi Alex, >>>>>>I think that reason for you to use only engines with open sources and delete >>>>>>all engines were you can see words : alpha, beta, prunning and many many etc. >>>>> >>>>>Vladimir that is really a dumb post after all... >>>>> >>>>>Guenther >>>>> >>>>>>You idea that Patriot 2.0 is clone - full absurd. >>>>>>Best. >>>>>>Vladimir. >>>> >>>>Is it really such a dumb post ? I am not sure - whenever someone mentions >>>>"clone" , I am skeptical - inspite of the number of clones that are discovered. >>>>I prefer to give the author the benifit of doubt - a genourously large benifit >>>>at that. >>>> >>>>Nothing is opensource programs is a "secret" , I mean - even if they were not >>>>opensource , the amateur (and definitely professional) authors will have arrived >>>>(or already have) at them independently : by expiriments or through available >>>>docs. I dont really see any ground breaking code or idea in any of the >>>>opensource engines today - all are straight forward implementations of the >>>>standard theory. >>>> >>>>Most , if not all , clone accusations show as "proof" something really dumb - >>>>like string search , result in a single position , behaviour of a parser (which >>>>is _not_ part of the engine as such people !) , etc - maybe these are the only >>>>possible ways to identify clones (I am not sure - and as I have posted before , >>>>I dont really care much) , but based on such flimsy grounds people should not >>>>accuse others. >>>>When you accuse a program as a clone - you are also maligning the reputation of >>>>the author : which is the more serious thing IMHO. >>>> >>>>What Vladimir Elin is hinting at is that (I think) , people (usually non-chess >>>>engine programmers who know quiet little about the programming aspects) see >>>>something/anything strange (in their eyes) and cry wolf. >>>>Like a string search which returns strings - which might be what is defined in >>>>the pgn spec , or a binary search which returns data match (whcih might be de to >>>>a generated parser for pgn handling for book) , etc ! >>>> >>>>Ofcourse wachful people are always needs to see the hints which will lead to the >>>>identification of many clones , but IMO we need a better way to decide how to >>>>identify clones. >>>> >>>>The current process seems to be : 1) Accuse 2) Flame 3) Author defends 4) >>>>mudslinging 5) Nasty posts - brining the author's whole family history to the >>>>ground 6) Challenge (to show source) 7) If 6 accepted , cleared , else branded >>>>as clone. >>>> I dont know about others, but no I am never going to send my source code to >>>>someone I dont personally trust - even if the rest of the computer chess >>>>community might seem to. >>>>Not everyone knows what the non-opensource guys are doing in their code : and >>>>personally I do many a stupid things , but I might have something interesting >>>>too :) >>>> >>>>So why have opensource engines ? - different question anyway , we wont discuss >>>>that since it is largely an authors decision. >>>> >>>>We should try to promote the number of amateur engines so that as many people as >>>>possible should enter this field - not discourage people. (both within >>>>reasonable limits ofcourse) >>>> >>>>Mridul >>> >>>Mridul -- >>> >>>First of all, your post makes me wonder if you are familiar with the Patriot 2.0 >>>situation, but anyway those things are boring for me so let's talk philosophy >>>for a second :) >>> >>>I've had the good or maybe bad luck to spend at least 3 years living in five >>>different countries, and I can make a certain observation. In two of these >>>countries - USA and Germany - society essentially works. Wages are decent, crime >>>is kept down, things just work. In three of these countries - Hungary, Czech >>>Republic and Poland - no offense intended to anyone, but they just don't work as >>>well. People steal from the government without getting punished, people cheat on >>>their jobs, nobody is willing to deal with various problems, etc. >>> >>>What's the difference? A huge difference is that in Germany and USA, people >>>essentially care. If they see something wrong, they report it and attempt to >>>rectify it. This goes from cleaning up a small mess on the road, to calling the >>>police if the neighbor is beating his family, etc. Throughout Eastern Europe, >>>people are apathetic - and everybody suffers as a result. >>> >>>Sometimes, it can seem a bit too much. I remember I had this impression when I >>>first came to the US - why is everybody so concerned with things that aren't >>>their business. In the overall picture, though, society is better for it. >>> >>>So I certainly appreciate that there are people who are going to look into these >>>things and do something about it, rather than just endlessly holding their >>>tongue for fear of being out of line. Without it, computer chess will just be a >>>mess. >>> >>>Vas >> >>Hi Vas, >> >> Like I mentioned myself , we need people who will point out the >>errors/suspicions. >>But these are just that suspicions - a 35% binary match of the executables (egtb >>will account for that ;-) ) , a small set of common strings , a bug in the fen >>parser (I have seen multiple people misread/misinterpret the same spec - there >>will be grey areas even in the most well written specs) , etc are not enough by >>a long shot to accuse something as a clone - they can be indicators of a >>potential clone at best. >> >>I visit CCC less and less nowadays - and each time I do so , a new program seems >>to be accused of being a clone : personally I dont care , it is a hobby for me , >>something I use to fill my remaining freetime with when I am not busy with other >>opensource projects I am involved with - but true , there are people who take it >>seriously and for them and for the future (if not for other reasons) we should >>try to keep this field as clean as possible. >> >>But that should not be at the expense of any tom dick and harry coming out and >>accusing programs of being a clone. >>That is why I said - we should have a better process for clone issue : how clone >>suspicions are raised , how they are probed into , how they are proved/disproved >>, etc : a bunch of amateurish tests should not be the basis of flame wars here. >>Makes the whole forum (and field for that matter) more and more unreadable and >>uninteresting. >> >> The analogy you raised is not really valid in this context (IMHO :) ). >>I wrote a long response in this space on that - and then removed it. >>That is not the matter we are discussing here :) - it will most probably only >>expose my ignorance of the issues concerned since I have never physically been >>to the places mentioned like you though I am made aware of the ground realities >>through my friends. >> >>Anyway , you are correct about the first point - my understanding (from what >>little I read among the accusations and counteraccusations that kept flying >>around) was that Patriot 2 was accused of being a clone , author did not expose >>the source code , branded as a clone by the community here based on the >>circumstantial evidence found (I read a few - maybe I missed a lot more) and the >>ones I read looked not very solid to me (I have not done any research on Patriot >>and never used it for that matter , so likely that I am missing the finer points >>of the Patriot2 clone issue). >> >>My main problem with these accusations is that : >> >>1) People here follow the maxim guilty until proven innocent. >> >>2) Sensationalism in the accusations - I see more and more of this in the media >>where it is better to say something bad to get the max amount of publicity and >>attention : same thing is being "imported" into CCC. >> >>3) In general , it is the author's reputation which is more at stake than the >>program as such , and mudslinging is affecting the author's reputation (the >>accusations might or mightnot be correct). >>Hence , even if something is disproved - the result is not going to remove the >>damage already done to it ! >> >>"An arrow which leaves the bow and a word which leaves the mouth cannot be taken >>back" - an old saying here :) >> >>I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty" too much (it might be a >>cultural/upbringing thing, not sure) , which is why these discussions disturb me >>more. >>Very few people seem to stick up for the author in general - like Peter Skinner >>seems to be doing right now (just skimmed through the posts now) , the more >>vocal group are the ones who are accusing. The others seem to be maintaining a >>studied silence - true , you should try not to react until you get all the facts >>- mark of a wise man , but sometimes it galls me when the more vocal group makes >>the community believe in an issue just because they keep repeating it and the >>others dont challenge or respond until everyone believes it ! >>I have seen way too many "discussions" of this nature in other forums online and >>now recently in CCC also. >>Justice happens when both sides are looked at impartially : assuming people are >>really interested in getting to the roots of the problem. (which most of us in >>CCC here are I assume). >> >>Note : even now I am not really saying whether the programs are clones or not , >>I dont have the data , unfortunately neither the time to investigate , or the >>patience for it right now and really appreciate the work people are puttig in >>this work. >> >> >>Thanks, >>Mridul > >Hi Mridul -- > >Ok there is no way I can write something intelligent at this hour :) > >There is a balance of course between persecuting too many innocents, and >defending too many who are guilty. > >I guess I don't see this particular cause as very attractive. > >Here is some more stuff about it: > >http://www.uciengines.de/UCI-Engines/Patriot/Patriot2/hauptteil_patriot2.html > >But frankly - I don't really care. :) > >Vas Hi Vas, Thanks for the link - will look into it later today. My understanding of the legal system (atleast over here) is that even if a thousand guilty escape , one innocent should not be punished. But you are correct - even I dont really care about clone issue (you publish the source , you expect others to use it - else dont publish it !) , and as I said before , if I ever do opensource any of my programs , I still wont care if someone clones them :) All this discussions is just to support the rest who do and the lend moral support to the programmers in general :-D In most of clone "discussions" here (I might have missed some) , I always support the programmer even when the evidence seems a bit too overwhelming and back off only when it becomes a certainity ... maybe it is just the romantic in me :) Even if initially through a clone , I would prefer more people getting into a field - later on they might start off on their own and create something really interesting (ideas I mean - I dont care much about implementation details) , etc. Thanks, Mridul
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