Computer Chess Club Archives




Subject: Re: Zappa-Isichess

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 07:49:57 08/20/05

Go up one level in this thread

On August 20, 2005 at 09:36:59, Arturo Ochoa wrote:

>On August 20, 2005 at 09:20:43, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>On August 20, 2005 at 08:30:55, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>On August 20, 2005 at 06:56:18, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>On August 20, 2005 at 06:17:37, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 21:53:12, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:49:56, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:36:45, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 19:50:08, Richard Pijl wrote:
>>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:43:01, Thomas Lagershausen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:26:55, A. Cozzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>Here I screwed my book creator, because the horrible, horrible Fritz interface
>>>>>>>>>>>resets the book options every time you touch the mouse, and played with
>>>>>>>>>>>incorrect options.  But somehow Zappa managed to slip into the win anyway;
>>>>>>>>>>>perhaps it was a bit lucky.
>>>>>>>>>>Never play with the cb-gui. It had cost a lot of programs points in the history
>>>>>>>>>>of wccc.
>>>>>>>>>>I hope Zappa 2.0 is still uci and can be used in Arena.
>>>>>>>>>Zappa's book requires the CB-GUI
>>>>>>>>I think that it is unfair to use books that require the CB-GUI
>>>>>>>>If I understand correctly it means that the GUI choose the book moves and not
>>>>>>>>the engine so the author is using something external program to help him to
>>>>>>>>select moves.
>>>>>>>>I think that the engine needs to choose all the moves(otherwise the playing
>>>>>>>>thing is not original work of the author and the authors of the chessbase gui
>>>>>>>>should be mentioned as part of the team).
>>>>>>>Uri Blass, the king of the absurd arguments.
>>>>>>>1) For CCT7 and the Elhvest Match, I used the native format for Zappa.
>>>>>>>2) For WCCC2005, there are several engines that has been using the ChessBase
>>>>>>>GUI. However, it doesn't mean that the Book was made by ChessBase. The Book
>>>>>>>Responsible for Zappa in the WCCC2005 has been Erdogan whose book is in the
>>>>>>>ChessBase format. It is his original work performed by several years.
>>>>>>>The engine is a complete original work of Anthony Cozzie.
>>>>>>>If you are going to begin your post-WCCC2005 nonsense before the Tournament is
>>>>>>>over, I suggest you find other hobby according to your absurd world, instead of
>>>>>>>writing craps every day of the year.
>>>>>>1)I did not say that chessbase made the book.
>>>>>>2)I understood before making the previous post that the book is original and the
>>>>>>part that choose the moves is not original.
>>>>>>3)I know that 2 is the case not only for zappa but also for part of the other
>>>>>>engines(at least in the past) and I know that at least Jonny and falcon used the
>>>>>>chessbase interface in the previous WCCC.
>>>>>>4)I did not know before reading your post that the fact that zappa used the
>>>>>>chessbase interface is because Erdogan's book is in the chessBase format.
>>>>>Zappa has never known to use CB Books. Erdogan help joined 3 weeks ago or so.
>>>>>You will never learn the lesson to ask first and then to draw conclusions.
>>>>This comment is a personal attack against me but I decided not to complain.
>>>>Note that I did not make a personal attack in my first post and only wrote:
>>>>"I think that it is unfair to use books that require the CB-GUI"
>>>>I attacked a situation and not a person and I talked about something that
>>>>happened and not about the future(I try to understand why you get so angry about
>>>>it and maybe you understood that what I say is equivalent to claiming that the
>>>>author of zappa cheated by doing it and of course not me and nobody else meant
>>>>to claim it).
>>>>Unfair does not mean illegal by the rules but against justice and the problem is
>>>>not only with zappa of this tournament(In my original post I did not mention
>>>>that the problem is not only with zappa and I did not mention that it is not
>>>>something personal against the author and I did not explain that the problem is
>>>>not that the book is not original and maybe it was a mistake).
>>>>Maybe my choice of words was not the best and it was better to write:
>>>>"I think that it is better that in the future, books that require the CB-GUI
>>>>will not be allowed or be allowed only for one engine of chessbase".
>>>>Note that I never used the chessbase gui in previous WCCC because I felt that it
>>>>is unfair if the interface does decisions for the engine like claiming a draw
>>>>and I noticed that it even has bugs in claiming draw and can claim a draw by
>>>>repetition inspite of the fact that in the first case enpassent capture is
>>>>I know that some engines used the chessbase gui also in the WCCC in Israel and I
>>>>think that it also was not correct to allow it.
>>>>>There was no option there.
>>>>This is not correct.
>>>>There was an option not to use the chessbase interface and not to use Erdogan's
>>>No, you dont read and you mess up. Simply, there was _no_ option, since I
>>>retired for personal reasons. The unique option was Erdogan.
>>Total and complete horse hockey.  I've played in _many_ events.  I didn't use
>>"Erdogan's book".  So obviously _I_ was able to come up with another option,
>>namely my own book.  And I won WCCCs and ACM events with my own book.  I have no
>>problem with someone having a book author.  Peter Berger is doing that for
>>Crafty.  I do have a problem with programs that are using shared code for tasks
>>that are not strictly one-answer tasks.  EGTBs are a counter-point, in that
>>everyone gets the _same_ EGTB score whether they use Eugene's code, write their
>>own probe for his tables, or write code to build their own tables.  But an
>>opening book is not the same, because it includes lots of different features.
>>How to select from different choices at the same point.  What about learning?
>You introduce a debate of general ideas when the Tournament is quite over. I
>dont understand what the importance is now. If you are so proactive and so
>effective, you should address those rules with the ICGA.

I have.  Others have.  It has been a topic at past player's meetings at
WMCCC/WCCC events...

>Personally, I have never used a CB Gui for my Book (8 times now). An opening
>book is the same thing. Zappa will be probably the new World Champion and it is
>out of time this dicussion when it should have be held some months ago. Not now.

This discussion _was_ held several months ago.  And several years ago.
Obviously, as I mentioned, the ICGA is not ready to take the issue head-on and
fix it...

>If you don't underdstand what means a 3-weeks work, well. Berger had also 1
>year. I retired and Zappa found a solution. By the way, a very good solution:

Ask peter if he worked on our book for one year.  Or even one month.  You might
be surprised...  But I'll let him tell you...

>>The opening book software plays a large number of moves in each game.  If we can
>>share that, shouldn't we all share the best engine too?  Or share the best
>>engine and write our own book code for it?  etc?
>>The idea is flawed.  In a basic and easy to understand way...
>Zappa has its own particular code for creating books. I was the Zappa's Booker
>for CCT7 and the Ehlvest Match using the native format of Zappa. Erdogan did not
>have time to transfer a CTG to a Zappa native format.
>So, your point is also flawed.

No it isn't.  You enter a karate tournament.  But all you know how to do is
shoot a revolver.  What do you do?  You learn Karate, or you play elsewhere...

>>>>>By the way, Zappa is winning the Tournament.
>>>>The fact that Zappa is winning the tournament is not a surprise and I guessed it
>>>>before the tournament.
>>>This is not a fact yet. It is happening until now. Tomorrow it will be knwon the
>>>new Champion. Uri Blass doesnt have any solution.
>>This isn't about who is winning.
>Blass established that as a fact but it will happen tomorrow. What is your point

My point is about playing by the rules.  The rules prevent multiple copies of
programs or programs that contain parts of other programs.  If a GUI makes an
opening move decision, it is _clearly_ a key part of that program.  Sharing it
violates the actual letter of the rules.  But nobody seems to get that small

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